Would like to finish the search.

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safari
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Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:51 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand by this that the idea that there is some part of our minds which sits apart from the rest of it and which is in control of things is flawed. No such self exists.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for someone who can assist me in exploring my mind and thoughts so that I can free myself finally from the idea of self. In the past, I've thought a couple of times that I'd managed to get beyond the idea of self, but each time I've started looking for "something else" again.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A discussion which will guide my exploration so that I can see through the idea of self, and which will assist me in becoming confident enough to give up further time-consuming research into methods of achieving enlightenment or awakening.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing zen on and off for ten years or so. I used to meditate regularly but now I meditate occasionally. I've done a fair amount of reading etc regarding zen, non-duality, awakening etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:57 pm

I can see that there is a queue for guiding at the moment - just adding that I don't mind waiting for an experienced guide, preferably with some knowledge of zen buddhism.

I believe that I am currenty hovering around the gate, having been through it on a few occasions. Although I know that there can be nothing more to be found than "just this, as it is", I am finding it difficult to stop the search, which leads me to believe that I have not seen the lack of self clearly enough for it to become permanent.

safari

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:56 am

Hello Safari,

My name is Kay and I am free to guide you. I am not a Buddhist and know nothing about Buddhism and that may be of benefit, as there is no commonality in philosophy between us, and this keeps the guiding free of beliefs. I am not sure that we have any guides with Buddhists backgrounds guiding at the moment.

So if you are okay with me guiding you, just let me know and we can get on with the looking.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:19 am

Hi Kay,

Thank you for getting in touch.

I am fine with you guiding me, and am looking forward to beginning the looking.

love,

Alan (Safari)

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:21 am

Hi Alan,

Welcome to LU! Just bringing your attention to some bits and pieces before we begin. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

To keep the thread legible and easy to follow, please learn to use the quote function. When replying to questions, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have in blue text, and to answer them individually as well please...and remember to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:07 pm

Dear Kay,

I have read the disclaimer, and I understand how to use the quote function.

I’ll reply to your questions later today as I want to spend a while thinking about them before replying,

love, Alan

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:16 pm

Dear Kay,

Here are my answers about expectations. I found some of the questions difficult to answer. Some of the questions overlap a little, as do my answers.
How will life change?
I don't think that life itself will change much, but the way I view it may be different.
How will you change?
I'm hoping that I will be able to live more freely, that I will be able to be content with life as it is, and that I will get free from the idea that there is something more, or something else, that I need to find in order to be "awake".
What will be different?
I will have ceased looking for some awakening or some spiritual breakthrough.
What is missing?
I can't see that anything is missing, except maybe some different understanding of, or relationship with, life.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I would like to see the nature of reality properly and then be able to give up searching. I am tired of feeling that I need to keep searching for something else. It it taking my time and my energy.

love, Alan

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:23 pm

Hi Alan,
Here are my answers about expectations. I found some of the questions difficult to answer. Some of the questions overlap a little, as do my answers.
Yes, they seem to be 5 different questions, but they are not as they are all asking the same thing as a means to get to seeing what your expectations are. Expectations are a hindrance as there is a hope/desire for something to be different or there is an idea on how realising ‘no self’ should look or feel. And when these expectations don’t come to fruition, then the searching continues because realising ‘no self’ isn’t registered when seen, because of expectations.
How will life change?
I don't think that life itself will change much, but the way I view it may be different.
Yes, perception changes. There has never been a ‘you’ and life has been lifing, so why would that change. Just like life didn’t change when the reality of Santa Claus was known. Christmas did not stop appearing, nor did Santa, gifts were still exchanged and so on.
How will you change?
I'm hoping that I will be able to live more freely, that I will be able to be content with life as it is, and that I will get free from the idea that there is something more, or something else, that I need to find in order to be "awake".
This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through, however, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.


Okay so this exploration is based on actual experience (AE), so let’s have a look at what AE is.

You can get a ‘real’ apple for this exercise or just use the picture.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:04 am

Dear Kay,

I've spent a while with an apple looking into these questions.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is no apple as such, just sensations and experiences which I label as 'apple'.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No, 'apple' is a label I give to a particular set of sensations.
However, is an apple actually known?
I know the concept or idea or thought of an apple, but at a more basic level I only know the sensations and experiences that I associate with an apple.

Love, Alan

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:31 am

Hello Alan,
I've spent a while with an apple looking into these questions.
Terrific! I just need you to be more specific in your language when it comes to actual experience (AE) and not lump AE under just 'experience' or 'sensations'. In AE sensations refer to touch and bodily sensations. You will see why this is necessary as we move through this exploration.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is no apple as such, just sensations and experiences which I label as 'apple'.
So that you become clear about AE and continue to LOOK with AE, I ask that you don’t lump AE into just ‘experiences’ or ‘sensations’ Please be specific. (You will find that I repeat stuff a few times!)

So the AE of ‘apple’ is colour and thought….is that right?
And if you were to say, touch and eat the apple, then there would also be AE of sound, sensation, smell, taste....yes?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No, 'apple' is a label I give to a particular set of sensations.
As above, please be specific.
So when looking you found that there was no ‘apple’; only the AE of label and thoughts about apple? Right?
However, is an apple actually known?
I know the concept or idea or thought of an apple, but at a more basic level I only know the sensations and experiences that I associate with an apple.
So, is an apple actually known?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:17 pm

Dear Kay,

I understand about being more specific.
So the AE of ‘apple’ is colour and thought….is that right?
Yes, the AE of seeing an apple is colour, shape and thought.
And if you were to say, touch and eat the apple, then there would also be AE of sound, sensation, smell, taste....yes?
Yes, when I pick up an apple and bite into it there is also the AE of touch, taste, smell and sound.
So when looking you found that there was no ‘apple’; only the AE of label and thoughts about apple? Right?
Yes, there is no 'apple" when looking, only the visual AE of colour and shape, and the AE of thought and lable about "apple".
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
I've begun to do this today. What I notice so far is that when I tune into the AE of what's going (vision, sounds, touch, taste. smell and thoughts) there is a sense of everything being held in more space.

love , Alan

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:17 am

Hello Alan,
So the AE of ‘apple’ is colour and thought….is that right?
Yes, the AE of seeing an apple is colour, shape and thought.
How is it known that a apple has a shape? Is it because a thought appears saying that an 'apple' has a particular shape?

Shapes are just different patterns of colour, so it is just simply colour.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
I've begun to do this today. What I notice so far is that when I tune into the AE of what's going (vision, sounds, touch, taste. smell and thoughts) there is a sense of everything being held in more space.

The purpose of this exercise is to become aware of AE and to observe the thoughts that appear about AE.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:38 am

Dear Kay,
How is it known that a apple has a shape? Is it because a thought appears saying that an 'apple' has a particular shape?
I don't see that colour alone can lead to the thought apple. If there is a red ball beside a red apple, there must be something as well as colour that leads to the thought "ball" or "apple". I'm okay with this other thing being called pattern.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
I have found that at any moment there are many AE that I can choose to focus on. For example, walking in the street yesterday there were:

sounds - giving thoughts of feet, traffic, people talking, the wind
images(colour/pattern) - giving thoughts of buildings, cars, buses, people
touch sensations - giving thoughts of my feet on the ground, the cold wind on my face, the movement of my body
smells - giving thoughts of traffic pollution

love, Alan

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:38 am

Hello Alan,
How is it known that a apple has a shape? Is it because a thought appears saying that an 'apple' has a particular shape?
I don't see that colour alone can lead to the thought apple. If there is a red ball beside a red apple, there must be something as well as colour that leads to the thought "ball" or "apple". I'm okay with this other thing being called pattern.
This isn't about you being okay or not okay with what is being pointed to. It is about LOOKING to see what actually is and not what thoughts say is! Thought has no idea whether an apple is an apple or a ball! And it is only another appearing thought that says the label ‘apple’ belongs to an apple that is made up of certain qualities, ie smell, taste, etc. If you try to logic this exploration with thought, you will be chasing your own tail! Thinking is the wrong tool, the tool needed is LOOKING.

Without thought, when a so called ‘apple’ appeared, how would it be known that it is an apple? It wouldn’t, it is simply colour.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
I have found that at any moment there are many AE that I can choose to focus on. For example, walking in the street yesterday there were:

sounds - giving thoughts of feet, traffic, people talking, the wind
images(colour/pattern) - giving thoughts of buildings, cars, buses, people
touch sensations - giving thoughts of my feet on the ground, the cold wind on my face, the movement of my body
smells - giving thoughts of traffic pollution
Great! So keep doing this exercise for a few days so that you become clear about AE and noticing the thoughts that appear ABOUT AE.

So let’s have a look at the nature of thought. If you are someone who is intellectually minded, then this exercise will challenge you.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Would like to finish the search.

Postby safari » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:46 am

Dear Kay,

I’m looking around the room. (There are a lot of different items present).

Before thought there is just a completely unlabelled image (areas of light, dark, colour). If I pause my my eyes on something there seems to be a knowing what that thing is, before I put a name to the thing.

So, for example, if I look at the colour (image) of what is a door, there is sense of knowing what it is that seems to arrive before I think the word door.

I will do the thought experiment later today and report back.

Love, Alan


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