GETIT!

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Kixem
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GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:06 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Understand? I really don’t know any more what I understand.. And whatever it is I think I understand, I don’t really trust. And most importantly I don’t know who/what/when/if and how that “I” is..It seems I am more of nothing than of something; a space, spirit, a field. (Is what you call self, what others might call Ego?)

What are you looking for at LU?
To reinforce and expend on the above. “Rub shoulders” with people who get it, so I see the truth about self in an experiential way. I am looking for the truth. Separate the “chaff” from the “grain” of life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Support in seeing that the idea of self is just that. I suspect that navigating to and through the “gate” is a dangerous business. I’d appreciate and could use some guidance. If you decide to assist me I hope you don’t abandon me until I see it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Religious upbringing, clueless, EST in the 70’s, clueless, recklessly dissipated my youth, got married(still married), blessed with three adult daughters, clueless, Meditation for about 40 years, on an and off, mostly on, but definitely on for the last 10. Oh, and I forgot, throughout all of this, clueless..

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
153!..

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:24 am

Hello there!

I really don’t know any more what I understand.. And whatever it is I think I understand, I don’t really trust.
This sounds pretty good!
You can confidently let go of everything you thought was true. Especially "spiritual knowledge".
Don't hold onto it.
Only trust in your very own present experience and insight.


Is what you call self, what others might call Ego?
Yes. Call it what you like. Ego, self, "I", "me" and so on.
Basically every subjective reference in experience.


To clarify that, here a few examples:

It is the assumption that there is a seer doing the seeing.
Where exactly is "I" in seeing?

There is the assumption that there is an "I" doing the thinking.
But is "I" not just a thought itself? How could it think? Can a thought think other thoughts?

Sometimes there is a strong belief in a "self" in "body".
Where exactly can a "self" in "body" be found? What does it look like?
What does it feel like?
Is there a "self" in sensation?


You can see in what direction this is going!


How is "I" experienced today?
Is it more than a thought? A thought with the content "I"? And other thoughts telling a story about this "I"?



With kindest regards
Matthew
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:56 pm

Hi Matthew, thanks for your willingness to help me out.
I feel immensely grateful and appreciative.
You say:
“Only trust in your very own present experience and insight.”

Even that is highly questionable..I don’t know if my own present experience and insight, as actually experienced and seen, is any more reliable.

“Where exactly is "I" in seeing/thinking ?”

Where..where?..I don’t know “where”, if you’re asking to locate “I”. Yes, the assumption is that there’s a seer engaged in the seeing, some thinking mechanism engaged in thinking.(oh, how I hate language!.. I feel so trapped in it!..)
This could be either totally parenthetical and inconsequential or central to this whole inquiry, but about a month ago or so, I came across the liberation unleashed website and started reading everything I could get my hands on about it, totally engrossed in it. Read gateless gatecrashers, and brutal beginnings. For the first two weeks or so I was so fascinated and really excited(still am)and have since been doing a lot of looking and asking questions. For the last two weeks or so I have been in a state of profound agitation, disequilibrium, always on edge, disoriented, extremely sensitive and disturbed. Am wondering if this has to do with my diet/digestive processes/new shoes/repressed memories surfacing/weather changes/...., or the self reacting as it is figuring that it’s days(if it ever had any..)might be numbered.


“How is "I" experienced today?
Is it more than a thought? A thought with the content "I"? And other thoughts telling a story about this "I"?”
How is I experienced today?
Tiredness, agitation, overwhelmed with work, shortness with those around me, tension, some fear, insecurity, judging others, pissy. That’s how.

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:17 pm

How is "I" experienced today?
Tiredness, agitation, overwhelmed with work, shortness with those around me, tension, some fear, insecurity, judging others, pissy.
This is how "I" is experienced, really?

Or is this how
"Tiredness, agitation, overwhelmed with work, shortness with those around me, tension, some fear, insecurity, judging others, pissy"
is experienced.

What has "I" to do with these appearances?

Is there an "I" tired? Or is there just tiredness?
Is there an "I" doing the judging of others? Or is there just thought about "judging others"?
Is it the "I" which is overwhelmed with work? How does this look like? Or is there just a lot of work. :-)


I don’t know if my own present experience and insight, as actually experienced and seen, is any more reliable.
It is. It actually is. It is the only existent "thing" reliable if you disregard beliefs and assumptions.


Am wondering if this has to do with my diet/digestive processes/new shoes/repressed memories surfacing/weather changes/...., or the self reacting as it is figuring that it’s days(if it ever had any..)might be numbered.
It is likely the last one.
Theatrically metaphorically spoken ;-)


oh, how I hate language!.. I feel so trapped in it!..
Let us see through this apparent trap.
Language is arranged with subject and object to make it more fluid.
Always saying "Happiness is experienced here now" would be silly.
It is way easier to say: "I am happy".
Just do not get fooled by it :)

You might already have come across this excercise within your readings.
But I want you to do it in a relaxed and joyful way, with a fresh look!


Please write down for about three minutes everything that is happening right now using normal language.

Like this:
I am sitting here
I am hearing a car
I am writing things down
I am feeling a pressure at my back


Then...

Find another spot and write down again everything what's happening right now spearing the subjective reference.

Like this:
Hearing a bird
Writing words
Wondering
Sitting on a chair



What can be observed?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:14 pm

I am sitting on a chair in my room
I am feeling my aching legs and feet
I am feeling tired
I am feeling sleepy
I am hearing people talking outside
I am trying to come up with things to write
I am aware of quietness through all of this
I am touching the spaces on my iPad that produce black marks on a milky colored screen
I am feeling the edge of the desk on my belly as I lean forward
I wish I could go to bed and forget about everything

Got to go. To be continued.

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:46 am

Write it down on paper. And just tell me what can be observed.
How does it feel to use the of the one type of language as opposed to the other?

Which one felt more or less succinct and clear? More or less pleasant?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:18 am

The first part of the exercise feels unnecessarily wordy, so much self referential, heavy, judgmental, alright already, who cares?
The second part, ah, the second part! It feels light, yes, more pleasant, succinct!, relevant, interesting, heavenly...

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:11 am

So it is obvious, that normal, subject-object-based language is good for communication.
Not so good for identification :-)

Good for communication.
But when looking at things as they are, this non-subjective language is even more succinct, as it was seen.

Repeat this excercise if needed.


oh, how I hate language!.. I feel so trapped in it!..
Does the usage of ordinary language still cause hate to arise? :)
Does normal language still feel like a trap?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:04 am

Yes, I will repeat the exercise, as needed.
The use of normal language, at times, feels like a trap, in the sense that an urge rises in me to go beyond language, transcend it. What I conceive in thinking or communicate is always dictated/constricted/limited by language. But all of this is a side issue.

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:33 am

Ah!

So if this seems to be a side issue, what exactly seems to be the main issue right now?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:22 am

The central and only issue is going through the gate. Seeing through the illusion of I.

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:20 am

So what is "The Gate".
Is there a gate?
Can you find a gate?
Where is it established? What colour does it have? What material is it made of?
Or is "The Gate" just an idea?
Is it just an idea that there is a "gate"?

What is the one, who is ought to go through a gate?
Is there a one?
Can you find a one?
Or is the one, who should go through an imaginary gate, also just an idea?


Could it be that you are -in this very moment- imagining a gate?
Could it be that you are -in this very moment- imagining a one, who has to go through a gate?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:47 pm

Hi Matthew,,
Are these questions for me to answer in a post or to privately consider and ponder?
(Either way I assure you, they’re with me all day long)
I take heart at your signature/logo:”All will arrive”, tell me it’s true..

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Matthew
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Matthew » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:49 pm

I take heart at your signature/logo:”All will arrive”, tell me it’s true..
"All will arrive" is indeed an exclamation, which is supposed to evoke courage.
Although not 100% accurate.
Since there is no one, who could arrive.
No one advancing to a destination here.
When this is seen, it is over.


And yes, it is true.
Sometimes in the morning upon waking up, there is a little resistance.
"Let me just sleep a little longer. I'm having such a nice dream."
A similar process is happening here.
It is the holding on to the identity. It is the not quite wanting to let go of the story of "me" or whatever the name is.
But in both cases. Eventually you will wake up. It cannot not happen.


Are these questions for me to answer in a post or to privately consider and ponder?
If you can answer the questions, please go ahead!
If not, then you can "keep them in mind" (haha)


The central and only issue is going through the gate.
What do you expect "The gateless gate" to be like?
What will change?

Seeing through the illusion of I
How do you expect it to be like when it is seen through?
Do you expect, that thoughts about the character "me" or whatever the name is, will dissappear completely?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Kixem
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Re: GETIT!

Postby Kixem » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:00 pm

Hi Matthew,
You say:
“All will arrive" is indeed an exclamation, which is supposed to evoke courage.”
Well, courage rises, indeed, when I read that!..
The clarification about the accuracy and veracity is understood.
All these questions about “the Gate”..
I am “thoughting” that it’s he “aha” moment/liminal space between not having seen that there is no I, and having seen that, in an experiential away.
Every single time, there has been an upsetting moment in my life, it has been so, invariably, certifiably, and unfailingly, because too much “self” was involved in the situation that preceded the upset. Too much “self” invested in it.
I suppose, it could be said, that the end of suffering/upset is the sought after thingy.
I’ve made some significant life changes in order to discover/realize there’s no self.
No, I don’t expect the thoughts about the “me” character to disappear completely or partially. I don’t care either way, as long as “it” is not taken seriously
To be ignored and disregarded, would be nice!..
How does “seen” happen?
(All-expect that-will arrive.-!)


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