To see what there IS to be seen

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Curupira
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To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:04 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That I'm not a real person, because this "person" is just a thought. The attachment that there is between the mind and the body is also just a thought.

What are you looking for at LU?
To really see what there is to be seen. There is a feeling in my heart about all this, which already lead me to some clarification. But I still could not see the "broad perspective", the "unpersonal look", that some "teachers" or "gurus" or "guides" sometimes tell about. I know that there is "nowhere to go", no "accomplishment to succeed", no "level to reach", but I still cannot see without the idea of a person seeing things, even knowing that this "person" is really not there.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To see which are the factors that are still holding me from seeing without the feeling of being a person that see things. To guide me or test me in these ideas, removing the veils that still hold. To really open the eyes.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was raised on Christianism and Spiritism, but I can say that I already could drop these burden.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:43 pm

Hi Curupira

My name's Ben and I'm happy to be your guide.

It's all about LOOKING. We're not paying attention to the content of thought anymore. No more stories. I'll just POINT you where to LOOK, and as long as you look thoughtlessly and with enough intent the illusion will lift.

Stay present with the thought “I”. To where does it point in you?

Good luck!

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:22 pm

Hi, Ben!

Thank you for your words and time.

Yeah, that's all about this "LOOKING" that I (?) am "looking" for... :)
Stay present with the thought “I”. To where does it point in you?
Being 100% honest, the "I", to me, still points to something that I could "poorly" describe as the body. I can recognize that thoughts and feelings "happens", but still ramains the feeling that all this happens to this "body-mind" entity.

I feel "intelectually" that there is a veil, but I'm answering 100% honestly...

Thanks!

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:59 am

You’re welcome :) And thanks for your honesty.

It’s good to practice looking at your present experience only, rather than looking to the content of thought (stories).

Practice the following exercise as much as you can, whenever you remember.

If you remove all thought labels from experience, the only possible remaining raw sensory experience left are colour, smell, sensation, taste, sound and thought. Rather than identifying the difference between a tree and a car, which are different labels only thought knows, all that is seen is simply labelled as ‘colour’.

For example, as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree = colour.
Smelling coffee = smell.
Feeling the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste.
Hearing a car drive by = sound.
Thinking about work = thought. (Thoughts can either be ‘mental words’ or ‘mental images’)

Just break down all experiences into these categories throughout the day and let me know how you go.
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:21 am

Hi, Ben!
For example, as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree = colour.
Smelling coffee = smell.
Feeling the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste.
Hearing a car drive by = sound.
Thinking about work = thought. (Thoughts can either be ‘mental words’ or ‘mental images’)
I tried this test today and I realize that two things confuses me a bit: motion (moviment) and emotions.

I was at the traffic and I could see the colours that appear in the environment (although I see "objects", "things"), but when I see a car moving, for example, that is automatically "a car".

I could fell sensations at the moment I was eating something. The taste, the texture of what I was eating, those are sensations.

And, what about emotions? Today something happened in my personal life that got me, in some way, worried. Is this "worry" a feeling? Or is it a sensation?

Trying to break down the experiences of today:

- Seeing the traffic = colours (still things, but I could see the colours in them)
- Seeing a moving car = colours (although the moviment remind me that that was "a car")
- Feeling hungry = sensation
- Eating something = sensation
- Planning what to do in my day of work = thoughts
- Breathing = sensation
- Feeling worried = sensation (emotions?)
- Taking a shower and feeling the water = sensation
- Enjoying the water on my body = thought

I could describe lots of details, but those above got my attention.

Thanks!

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:50 am

Hi Curupira

Excellent work, very thorough. And good questions.

I won’t answer your questions directly, because nothing is hidden from you. All answers are directly in front of you for you to see, any question you’ve ever had about the nature of self and reality you can answer yourself, it just involves you looking at things in a certain way. So I’ll ask questions to guide your looking so you can answer your own questions.

In regards to movement, what is saying that ‘moving’ colour needs to be labelled differently to ‘stationary’ colour? What is thought adding to your direct and present experience of the world, and possibly confusing you?

What does this tell you about the nature of thought? What does it seem to need to do all the time?

In regards to your questions about emotions, the next few places I get you to look will allow you to begin to answer these questions for yourself.

Now I want you to focus on two aspects of your experience only, thought and sensation.

Bring up the “I” thought. Watch for any sensations that arise with this thought. Or in other words, where do you feel the “I” thought is labelling the body the most? It might be tension somewhere, a warm or heavy feeling. Maybe in the chest, the arms, the head or face. It could be anywhere. Try to find where thought labells the body “I” the most. It may seem like the thought of self, or the thought of “I”, is attached to a sensation in the body. See if you can find it.

Good luck!

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:33 am

In regards to movement, what is saying that ‘moving’ colour needs to be labelled differently to ‘stationary’ colour? What is thought adding to your direct and present experience of the world, and possibly confusing you?

What does this tell you about the nature of thought? What does it seem to need to do all the time?
I think it is "labelling". To name things. To recognize things, even without the "name" of the thing popping in my head, "things" are recognized.

This indicates to me that thought is always naming, recognizing, labelling things... Does it make any sense?
Bring up the “I” thought. Watch for any sensations that arise with this thought. Or in other words, where do you feel the “I” thought is labelling the body the most? It might be tension somewhere, a warm or heavy feeling. Maybe in the chest, the arms, the head or face. It could be anywhere. Try to find where thought labells the body “I” the most. It may seem like the thought of self, or the thought of “I”, is attached to a sensation in the body. See if you can find it.
The "I" thought brings me sensations, feelings. The place of where it is, it is a mixture of the head (maybe because of the sight?) and the center of the chest. That feeling of "feeling", "sensing". That worry that I described yesterday still remains. I can say that this "I" is sensing, feeling the "worry".

Sensations?

Thanks...

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:52 am

Hi Curupira

Yes, the nature of the mind is to label. Objects, movement, time, other, self. Some labels “stick” though, as it’s the nature of the mind to remember things.

Focus on the sensation in your chest that you’ve labelled as “I”.

Look at it thoughtlessly, as though you’re a child looking for a lost toy.

Describe it with as many adjectives as you can. Is it sharp, warm, soft, black, nice, bright? It could be anything. Also try to pinpoint it to its precise location.

Good luck

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:12 am

Hi, Ben!
Focus on the sensation in your chest that you’ve labelled as “I”.

Look at it thoughtlessly, as though you’re a child looking for a lost toy.

Describe it with as many adjectives as you can. Is it sharp, warm, soft, black, nice, bright? It could be anything. Also try to pinpoint it to its precise location.
I did start writing you the answer, describing the sensation, using several adjectives. Then I realize that all those adjectives were labels. Again, this was mind working.

Still, trying to continue the answer, I might say that it is a sensation. Nothing more than that. In fact, all the body is recognized as sensations. That "I" sensation is a formless sensation. It's location is, more or less, in the chest. A big labeled sensation, I might say...

I don't know where to "go" now...

I'll wait for new pointers.

Thank you!

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:41 am

Hi Curupira

You haven’t actually done the exercise. It’s important you look at this sensation precisely and describe it to me.

So try again. LOOK, carefully, at this sensation in the chest that you’ve labelled as “I”, and describe it as best you can.

For example, some good describing words to use might be:
Dark
Sharp
Round
Intense
Warm

And find its precise location. Take your time.

Talk soon

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:11 am

Hi, Ben!

Ok. I'll try to strictly follow what you say. As always, 100% honest.

This "I" that I metioned is like a black hole, from where my emotions arise. It is dark, warm and fills my chest.

I would describe as the hole, or breach, from where my body appeared. From where my body, my sensations, my "I" manifests, blooms.

I can locate it in my chest, at the center. Maybe my in heart.

A little bit silly to read that... But that is how I can describe it.

Looking forward for your reply.

Thanks!

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:32 am

Excellently done! Loving the attitude :)

So let’s break it down together.

Can you see that there’s two parts to the experience of “you”? There’s the thought “I” and there’s the sensation that’s been labelled “I”, which was the sensation in your chest.

So in other words:
The experience of “self” is made up of two separate experiences: thought + sensation. These two experiences combine and create and experience labelled “I” or “self”.

Don’t just take my word for it, have a look at your experience and verify what I’m saying. Take your time and really make sure you can see this for yourself. Is this true in your experience? Can you find anything else?

Good luck!

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:36 am

Hi, Ben!
Can you see that there’s two parts to the experience of “you”? There’s the thought “I” and there’s the sensation that’s been labelled “I”, which was the sensation in your chest.
Yes...
Don’t just take my word for it, have a look at your experience and verify what I’m saying. Take your time and really make sure you can see this for yourself. Is this true in your experience? Can you find anything else?
Yeah, this is true... there is nothing more than thoughts and sensations. There are sensations and the thoughts about interpreting them, defining them, labelling them. Even the sensation in my chest is a sensation being labelled.

I can't find anything else. Or, better saying, everything I find falls into those two "categories"...

Looking forward for your reply.

Thanks!

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Ben2
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Ben2 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:44 pm

Excellent looking, Curupira.

So firstly, let’s look at the sensation on its own. Forget about any thoughts for now.

Hold this sensation labelled “I” that’s located in your chest in your awareness. Just look at it, be with it, thoughtlessly.

It may take a while, but when you feel familiar with it, ask it a question. “Is this sensation me?” Or you could try, “Is there anything within this sensation that could contain a me?”

The answer won’t come to you via thought, it’ll be revealed to you experientially.

Try doing this as many times as you can, whenever you remember and let me know what you find.

Talk soon,

Ben
"Truth is infinitely simple, delusion is infinitely complex."

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Curupira
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Re: To see what there IS to be seen

Postby Curupira » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:22 am

Hi, Ben!

I'll need sometime for this one...

I'll be back soon.

Thanks!


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