Really

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Nonotion
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Really

Postby Nonotion » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:39 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Exploring the reality or otherwise of the illusion (or otherwise ) of self in a focused manner

What are you looking for at LU?
See how things are..move to a position/experience (I realise these words are clumsy) where without any effort or doing of any sort my “default” position is seeing the true nature of experience .. I would need to invent a rigidity of experience (fixed self) rather than the other way around .but hey lets see

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity,,apart from that not too much ..
Maybe honesty and some precision and straightforwardness of communication ..
simply appreciative that someone would bother to give this a go .. everything else is a bonus

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
20 years seeking . Feel I see through illusion of self BUT want to absolutely sure

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:17 pm

Hi there!

You had to wait a little since the forum is very busy at the moment. But now we can jump right in, shall we!


Feel I see through illusion of self BUT want to absolutely sure
How is "the self" experienced today?

Is there a "me" somewhere to be found apart from a thought about it?


With kindest regards
Matthew
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:29 am

When I look I can find no self just Sensate experience however I still have to look .. if I forget to look I can have an idea of a self ..or to put it another way I can forget that there is no self .. my defaault position does not yet appear to be without experience of self .
It may only be a thought or in a way “prethought”(this for me is the really important bit ) . Either way I can seem to forget the intellectually and “when I look “ experientially reality if my inability to find a self ..
Thanks for dialogue Mathew ..hope this is clear enough

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:26 am

Feel I see through illusion of self BUT want to absolutely sure
This tells, there is an apparent need for confirmation that there is no self.

But being unable to find a self when looking for it, what is it that needs confirmation?
What needs to be sure?

Does actually anything need confirmation?
Is there actually a one or a thing, which is not sure?

Have a look for these!

however I still have to look
You would like me-thoughts to dissappear for good?
This is not what we can aim for here.
What we can do, however, is recognising me-thoughts for what they are. So that you can just be okay with their appearance.
They might fade, or not. Doesn't really matter.

Would you wish for thoughts about "other characters" to go away?
Is there something special about thoughts with the content "me-character" as opposed to thoughts with the conent "other characters"?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:49 pm

Re needing confirmation and being sure etc

Think we are getting to heart of mini/block confusion I have .
When I look for all the things you asked me to look for I can find nothing .There is no “one or thing “ that is not sure

No I would not wish for thoughts about other characters to go away .no there is nothing special about the thoughts re me character .

It seems that I sometimes forget that me thoughts are just thoughts .. how would that realization become my default position ..is that possible ? I think I just need to bathe a bit in this “how things are “
Talking about it and being pointed help me do that .
I want this to be like the Santa Claus notion where I can never be conned in any given moment to believe that Santa exists .is that a reasonable goal ?

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:30 pm

I think I just need to bathe a bit in this “how things are “
I want this to be like the Santa Claus notion where I can never be conned in any given moment to believe that Santa exists .is that a reasonable goal ?
These conditioned reoccuring thought patterns are not ought to fade over night.
Just let it play itself out. Relax. Let it burn until there is nothing left to burn down.
All we are doing here is adding a little bit of tinder to the fire by looking at certain aspects.


It seems that I sometimes forget that me thoughts are just thoughts
So me-thoughts appear as if they were true sometimes?

How is it known that a thought is true? How could that only ever be known?
Because a (subtle) thought tells/gives the sense of them being true?

I'm not trying to sell you on this idea.
Please check it thoroughly by looking into things.

"I have made that decistion right now" is a common thought.
How is it known that this is true?
Because another thought tells so?

Does that make it true?

What can be observed!
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:08 pm

Thoughts are simply arising ..one thought can seem to create the illusion of truth or knowingness about another thought or itself but there is only evidence that there are thoughts .
I will keep looking

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:56 pm

Yes. Good.

my default position does not yet appear to be without experience of self.
It may only be a thought or in a way “prethought”(this for me is the really important bit)

So what would a "prethought" be?

Of course. The thought "I" can precede another thought. Why not.
Just as the thought "tree" can precede another thought.

Does that make the thought "tree" any special?
Does that make the thought "I" any special?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:37 am

The thought “I” or tree etc one is no more special than another . This is a very useful orientation in practice .
The prethoughts I mention once I examine them they are no different in nature than thoughts of any sort just a bit “quieter and more guttural”
Now I am precisely aware of what I am looking at in direct experience it for me is simply a matter of looking a bit more consistently and seeing what is there .
I simply need to bother enough to look .
Have you any thoughts on “bothering”

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:11 pm

I simply need to bother enough to look .
Have you any thoughts on “bothering”
This bothering is something completely innocent and most forgivable.
When someone tries to wake you up early in the morning, there is a little resistance against getting up.
"Let me sleep just a little longer"
It is bothering a little to get up from sleep in the morning.
In the same way it is bothering a little to snap out of the illusion.

But sooner or later you will wake up. It cannot not happen.


How is it known that I-thoughts are “quieter and more guttural”?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:41 pm

The “quieter and more guttural thoughts “ are only sometimes I type thoughts and other times about whatever else .. none of these thoughts can be known .
I will continue to look more frequently to notice what is happening and report back

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:36 pm

Let me just clarify the question.
When I ask "how is it known" then I want you to look, what exactly it is, that makes these thoughts appear that way.
What makes them appear in a way as if they were somewhat special.


Like in this case.
The prethoughts I mention once I examine them they are no different in nature than thoughts of any sort just a bit “quieter and more guttural”
If the prethoughts (like "I") would be really quieter and more guttural than other thoughts, then they would be special.

But are they really?

What tells that these thoughts are quieter and more guttural?
Maybe just another thought labelling them as such?
Can that be observed?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:31 am

Ah this feels like an important distinction (or non distinction ) you have made .
Classification of thoughts is a thought ..
I am going to look further at this today and get back to you .
It is clear to me I was making an artificial distinction which am going to look at and get back to you with what I find .i am observing that etc
Am excited by this latest turn of events .
Feel we are getting to the heart of this .

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Matthew
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Re: Really

Postby Matthew » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 am

Wonderful!

Take your time
Looking forward to your reply
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Nonotion
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Re: Really

Postby Nonotion » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:11 pm

The thoughts labelling the thoughts (however)can be observed .
The thoughts seem to arrive quite quickly sometimes but of course that is also just a thought !
There is no evidence that they are any more than h just thoughts


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