Looking for what?

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jjm109
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Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:21 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is an unexamined idea in the mind that is believed totally. It says that I am an entity, an independent actor in life. The self claims all experience as its own.

What are you looking for at LU?
The being is looking for relief from the constraint of this belief in self - it feels like a straight jacket. Intellectually "I" am convinced of the emptiness/non-existence of self, but the feeling of constraint lingers in the heart.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The underpinnings of this belief need to be examined, confronted, and seen as empty. "I" would hope for ruthless examination from a guide. Nothing can be held sacred in this inquiry. Writing about "expectations" feels strange, as "I" have exhausted all efforts that occur to "me".

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My life fell apart in 1989 and since then I have been in a spiritual school (Diamond Approach/Ridhwan School) where the main method is inquiry. I have meditated for most of that time as well. I have also done deep psychological work/body work for many years. Most of the conditioning has been worked through, but this know remains. Seems that seeking has stopped in the sense of seeking for something particular, yet the feeling of seeking remains. Much peace and contentment is known, yet, there is a sense of incompleteness.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:15 pm

A few more details about my experience... I started the search at age 45 (now 73), so I reckon I'm on of the older ones on here. :) I have read the Gatecrashers book and watched the Ilona and Elena interview on BATGAP. I've also watched many Mooji satsangs the last 9 months.

And the inquiry continues even without a guide...

Last night I woke up at 4:30 and the thought arose "I am the Gate". Didn't pursue that and went back to sleep. When I woke in the morning it came to me that when the illusion of I is seen through, the Gate disappears.
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Ilona
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Re: Looking for what?

Postby Ilona » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:12 pm

Hi Jim,

Thank you for nice intro. We can look together and get all this untangled.
Firstly, it's very very simple. You don't need to rely on any teacher or their descriptions. All that you need is look in your experience anyone and work it out by yourself.

Can I ask you, what is incomplete right now?
What is it that you are looking for?
What needs to change?

Take time with these questions, be fully open and honest, whatever that is, spill it here.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm

Ilona,
First, thanks so much for agreeing to accept my “case” 
Can I ask you, what is incomplete right now?
Interesting question! I can’t find anything in direct experience that is incomplete, but the mind feels left out, so it thinks that is incompleteness. A little later I look again, still no felt sense of incompleteness but mind still says “you’re missing something”. I know these thoughts arise from nowhere, but another thought arises wanting to banish the incompleteness thoughts. So the battle continues…
What is it that you are looking for?
A mind that is at peace, not whining about incompleteness.
What needs to change?
Perhaps “my” taking those thoughts at face value? So who would take thoughts at face value – must be mind itself – another circularity… I haven’t been able to find an “I” for quite a while, but this paying attention to these thoughts persists.
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:42 am

Thank you..
so the mind feels left out and is not at peace?
What is in the way of peace?

Are you trying to get rid of the mind? That would make it unsettled...

You say that you haven't been able to find the i for a while, are you still hoping that it may show up?
When is it enough of looking for it?
It's a bit similar to Santa thing. If you are a kid and believe in Santa, then someone says that there is no Santa, would you be going to the North Pole to look for it, just in case Santa can be there?

Or once Santa story is seen to be just a nice fairy tale, it's enough to know that no extended efforts to find him are needed.

So what is this mysterious separate self, is it fiction or actuality?
Write what feels true, as you see it.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:25 am

so the mind feels left out and is not at peace?
What is in the way of peace?
Direct experience is peace, even with thoughts. Sometimes however, the I thought arises and obscures the peace. Seems like the “I” thought sometimes includes belief. Is that possible: that the thought contains the belief? Makes me curious, what is “belief” anyway?
Are you trying to get rid of the mind? That would make it unsettled...
Not the mind per se, just the I part. But who is trying to get rid of anything? Or is it possible to get rid of something that doesn’t exist anyway?
You say that you haven't been able to find the i for a while, are you still hoping that it may show up?
When is it enough of looking for it?
I’m not hoping it shows up. Seems pretty clear it doesn’t exist, yet the hypnosis/belief still seems to have power.
So what is this mysterious separate self, is it fiction or actuality?
Fiction for sure. Puzzling how belief can make fiction look like something real.
I appreciate these questions very much – straight to the point!
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:18 pm

Not the mind per se, just the I part. But who is trying to get rid of anything? Or is it possible to get rid of something that doesn’t exist anyway?
Very good question! How would you answer that?

Consider this. You are in the desert and you see the dunes of sand as far as vision lets you. You are looking around and you see something that looks like an oasis, with palms, water, greenery.. you are going to check it out and all you find is a mirage. You look around and you see another oasis, you go close, but it's still a mirage. And again.. do you need to go check if it's a mirage next time you see this oasis? Does the illusion stop because you know that it's a mirage? Do you need to fight the image, to get rid of it or you just look and KNOW, it's not what it looks like?

Is i a thinker or a thought?
A feeler or a feeling?
A senser or a sensation?

Is there anything at all in experience that informs you that I is actual, not a mirage?

Is there a sensation of separateness?

Write what feels true.
Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:02 pm

Woke this morning feeling sadness. Seems like there is a belief that there must be a feeler/victim of sadness. Also was a sense of being trapped in this role of a person. But who is the believer? Is there a believer? Perhaps “belief” is a measure of the strength/intensity of a thought. If that is true, no believer is needed, just as no thinker exists of a thought.
Is i a thinker or a thought?
A feeler or a feeling?
A senser or a sensation?
Now to your questions… I is a thought, a feeling (usually more intense), a sensation.

After writing the above, I went to meditate for a while. Lots of stuff coming up… Seeing that I really love sensing and feeling and don’t want to lose that capacity. Seems there is belief that “I” owns that capacity.
Is there anything at all in experience that informs you that I is actual, not a mirage?
Nope, but the belief in one remains fierce.
Is there a sensation of separateness?
Nope again. All the senses (except sight) don’t know any separateness. Sight however seems to team up with the belief to keep “I” going ( cf the mirage analogy).

Thanks for “sending love” – that seems to be needed as I delve into this more deeply!
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:04 pm

Good work. But let's dig deeper.
Seeing that I really love sensing and feeling and don’t want to lose that capacity. Seems there is belief that “I” owns that capacity.
Interesting... investigate if that is true. Is i the owner of capacity to feel or is that another one of those beliefs?
Feel the bum touching chair.
Feel that sensation.
Without thought, memory, image, what is happening there? Is there a feeler, felt, feeling, bum, chair, or it's one sensation?
Is i sitting in the chair? Is i breathing? Is i beating heart?

Where does the sensation of "bum on the chair" ends and i begins?

Don't just guess, but investigate fully and write what is true.

Is the belief, 'that beliefs are fierce' helping? Beliefs are just unexamined assumptions, something that was taken as truth without checking for yourself. So how can that be fierce? Is it something solid, or that's just another belief about a belief?

Sending more love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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jjm109
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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:28 am

Feel the bum touching chair.
Feel that sensation.
Without thought, memory, image, what is happening there? Is there a feeler, felt, feeling, bum, chair, or it's one sensation?
Watching football game today, doing sensing of bum, particularly during commercials. Feeling a lot of energy in body, especially in the pelvis - often big contractions.

Same thing sitting here, reading your last reply, and again writing this. Something isn't wanting to release control. Sense of "me" feels like contraction, trying to control sensation...

Will continue with this...
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:19 am

Continuing...
Interesting... investigate if that is true. Is i the owner of capacity to feel or is that another one of those beliefs?
No, the capacity is innate, pre-exists "I"
Is i sitting in the chair? Is i breathing? Is i beating heart?
Again all that pre-exists any "I"...
Where does the sensation of "bum on the chair" ends and i begins?
Sensation doesn't end anywhere. "I" just tries to claim it after the fact.
My comment about "belief being fierce"
I think that refers to the contractions felt when "I" wants to assert its claim to reality, so again is only a reaction.

Sending love back to you...
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Ilona
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Re: Looking for what?

Postby Ilona » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:44 am

Good stuff.
Now let's take a look at the language and how it creates a doer.
Look around the room slowly and notice, how labels and stories pop up. Notice, that where attention goes, words describe what is being observed.
Play with that.

See how description is happening. Are you doing it or is it just happening?
Now take a look at the description. The language says that there is a thing doing something, for example 'a vase is standing on a table'
Is the vase doing standing?
A picture is hanging on the wall. Is it a picture that is doing the hanging?

I am sitting in a chair.
Is there i sitting?

Can you see how language invents the doer?

Describe what you noticed and then we will take next step.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:53 am

See how description is happening. Are you doing it or is it just happening?
It just happens, often much more slowly than it used to, but still no effort required.
Is the vase doing standing?
A picture is hanging on the wall. Is it a picture that is doing the hanging?

I am sitting in a chair.
Is there i sitting?
Sitting is just sitting, no doer involved, although "I" can claim agency.
Can you see how language invents the doer?
Yes, it kind of tilts the playing field toward that point of view, that there is a doer. Language points to an agent, but that is a fiction.

There is an awareness of wanting to please you with the "correct" answers. At the same time there is a deeper desire for truth. So the "I" is looking for the superficial, something to claim again. Deeper knowing doesn't need to be claimed.
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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jjm109
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Re: Looking for what?

Postby jjm109 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:48 pm

Continuation...

Woke up around 3:30, felt considerable relaxation, then a subtle pop or shift that felt like an ending to the sense of agency or doer. Woke up again later, experience felt like a mass of sensation with no delineation.

This morning the mind seems pretty empty/inactive.
You are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place between the two.

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Ilona
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Re: Looking for what?

Postby Ilona » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:44 pm

Very interesting...
how are you feeling today? Anything different?

Let’s continue with the investigation into language.
There is an exercise here
http://markedeternal.blogspot.mx/2012/0 ... s.html?m=1

Do it here or on paper. Tell me, how does body feel when what is happening is described in different ways.
Does description affect what is happening? If so I’m what way? Does it affect how you feel about what is happening? If so in what way?
Is it I that is looking?


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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