Emptynest and Forgetmenot

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Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:47 pm

I am here when you are ready.

Thank you.

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:59 pm

Hello Marcelo,

Okay, so let's start from scratch. First some housekeeping and then a couple of questions for you to answer at the end. Please read this through thoroughly.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. This kind of inquiry works best as a major daily commitment - a sort of relentless 'starving of the seeker', so post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought in and of itself does not contain any experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 3 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have highlighted in blue text. Please answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:04 pm

Hi, Kay!
How will life change?
Life will not change. Everything will continue to happen in the same way. Work, family, bills to pay. Something will change, but not the unfolding of experiences.
How will you change?
What I am has never changed and will never change. What I thought I was never really existed, so it does not make sense for me to want to change the mask.
What will be different?
Beliefs and fears will no longer cover experience. There will be no belief about the existance of a sufferer or about the feeling that he exists. Beliefs, fears and thoughts will be seen as they really are, as the aspects of a dream.

Hugs!

Marcelo.

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:32 pm

Hey Marcelo,

It is good for both you and I to be aware of expectations. Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future, as there is nothing that actually needs liberating, so liberation already is!
How will life change?
Life will not change. Everything will continue to happen in the same way. Work, family, bills to pay. Something will change, but not the unfolding of experiences.
Actual experience (AE) ie sound, thought, taste, smell, sensation and colour will keep appearing as it always has done. Perception about these is what will change. Life continues on lifing, as there is no one who is controlling life.
How will you change?
What I am has never changed and will never change. What I thought I was never really existed, so it does not make sense for me to want to change the mask.
When the major belief of being a separate self is seen through, some other thoughts and beliefs may also fall away as there is nothing for them to really ‘stick’ to.

It's somewhat like when you realised that Santa Claus didn't actually exist; that he was just character in a story. Nothing really changed and yet changes did happen. Thoughts, ideas and beliefs about Santa and Christmas fell away as they were perceived differently. Santa, however, still appears every Christmas, gifts are still exchanged, families still get together and depending on where you are, snow still appears.
What will be different?
Beliefs and fears will no longer cover experience. There will be no belief about the existance of a sufferer or about the feeling that he exists. Beliefs, fears and thoughts will be seen as they really are, as the aspects of a dream.
Suffering can still occur after ‘gating’ as not all beliefs fall away in that one instance. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place, and this depends on whether or not you continue LOOKING after 'gating' so that other beliefs can be seen through. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly because the foundation upon which these patterns are based is gone. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is an important first step in the greater journey of awakening to reality. It’s a necessary step, but is by no means the end of the ride.

When fear, resistance, frustration and anger appear during this exploration, which they usually do, let me know so that we can look at them together.

The face value of thoughts (which beliefs also are), are actual experience (AE), and therefore a part of reality. Thoughts either point to actual experience or point to thought stories about actual experience. The content of thoughts and in and of themselves, do not contain any experience. We will be looking at the nature of thought shortly.

So let’s begin with becoming aware of actual experience (AE) in day to day life.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

With love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:14 am

Hi, Kay!
Thank you!
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is no real apple here. I would say that there are colors, which I can see, there is shape (round), which I can also see and there are thoughts. I mention the shape, but I noticed that you did not. Why?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No, right now I can’t find any apple. And if there was an apple in front of me it would just be colors, flavor, shape, touch, thoughts, but no "apple".
However, is an apple actually known?
No apple can be actually known. Just thought, taste, smell, touch, shape and colour are experienced. “Apple” is just the label for one or more than one aspects of the AE.

Hugs!

Marcelo.

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:27 am

Hey Marcelo!
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is no real apple here. I would say that there are colors, which I can see, there is shape (round), which I can also see and there are thoughts. I mention the shape, but I noticed that you did not. Why?
Shapes are nothing but a particular pattern of colour!
Without the thought ‘shapes’, how would it be known that an apple was a particular shape? What is the AE of shape? It is colour! :)
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No, right now I can’t find any apple. And if there was an apple in front of me it would just be colors, flavor, shape, touch, thoughts, but no "apple".
Yes, exactly Marcelo! Lovely :)
However, is an apple actually known?
No apple can be actually known. Just thought, taste, smell, touch, shape and colour are experienced. “Apple” is just the label for one or more than one aspects of the AE.
Yep! The label ‘apple’ is AE of thought only as 'apple' is not known.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

The colour labelled 'cup' simply= colour
The smell labelled 'coffee', simply = smell,
The sensation labelled 'warmth' (of the coffee cup), simply = sensation.
The taste labelled 'coffee', simply = taste
The sound labelled 'tinkling' (spoon stirring the coffee), simply = sound
Thoughts ABOUT cup, coffee, spoon, making a cup of coffee and drinking the coffee etc, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:15 am

Hi, Kay!
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
This morning I was in my backyard drinking coffee. There was flavor, sensation (warm), smell, color, but not the thing labeled "coffee". There were sounds and thoughts (about birds singing and car engines) but there was no "bird" or "car" in AE. Thoughts were there, but their content were not.

There were thoughts of things to be done in the future. In AE I experienced thoughts, but not their content. There were thoughts, but no "future" and its "things".

I have observed all things as colors, sounds, etc., and the perceived world seems to lose something of its "reality" or solidity. It's like the "world of labels" is a projection of my preconceived thoughts. Well, now I'm just experiencing thoughts about this things. :)

Hugs!

Marcelo.

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:37 pm

Hi Marcelo,

Lovely observations!
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
This morning I was in my backyard drinking coffee. There was flavor, sensation (warm), smell, color, but not the thing labeled "coffee". There were sounds and thoughts (about birds singing and car engines) but there was no "bird" or "car" in AE. Thoughts were there, but their content were not.
It is great that you see the difference between the face value of thought and the content of thought!
I have observed all things as colors, sounds, etc., and the perceived world seems to lose something of its "reality" or solidity. It's like the "world of labels" is a projection of my preconceived thoughts. Well, now I'm just experiencing thoughts about this things. :)
For it to be a projection means that there must be a someone that is projecting the something, which points to separation.

Nice pick up on that thoughts are appearing about these things!

So, let’s have a closer look at the nature of thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:47 am

Hi, Kay!
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No, they appear by themselves.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No. Nothing.
Where are they coming from and going to?
From nowhere to nowhere.
Can you predict your next thought?
There is no way to do that.
Can you push away any thought?
No. It seems to me that I can even try (or I think I’m trying), but it ends when it ends.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
I even think I can, but in fact it is not that I cut the thought in the middle but the fact is that it came to an end by itself.
Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
So it seems to be. But in fact it arises without my choice.
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
No, they appear and end by themselves. I used to think I have control, but I have not.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
No. All I can do is realize its emergence and recognize its unreality.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Thoughts appear disorderly, on several different subjects. Sometimes there is the appearance of order but, yes, this is just another thought. There is thoughts about the coherence of thinking.

Hugs!

Marcelo.

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:47 am

Hey Marcelo,

Nice LOOKING with thoughts!

Find a TV team sport on TV or a Youtube clip that lasts for at least 5 minutes. The following link is to a game of soccer, but if you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTPxORAlT0Y

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening ie what is the actual experience of what seems to be happening?
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:38 am

Hi, Kay!
Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening ie what is the actual experience of what seems to be happening?
Without the comments there are only colors moving for no reason. Comments (thoughts) try to give meaning to experience, but this meaning is nothing but thought. The experience is only colors and thoughts.
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
No. The "game" happens without the comments. Only the thoughts state that it is a game. Actually, it's just the experience of moving colors.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
It is not a necessity. Life unfolds and thoughts are only a part of it. Sometimes there are thoughts, sometimes not. Sometimes there are sounds, sometimes not, and so it goes. Usually arise thoughts to state a meaning to everything. This is just thought. Life goes on without the need for meaning.

Hugs, Kay!

Marcelo.

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:50 am

Hey Marcelo,

Okay, so you are aware of the nature of thought, so there is no need to continue down that line. This probably all seems simple and unnecessary, however, I need to know where you are at....so thank you for your patience.

As you know, there is no control over thoughts, so let's look at control on an overall basis.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:20 pm

Hi, Kay!

That's all right. There is no hurry. :)
How is the movement controlled?
I can not find a controller. There is no controlling thought. So I can only deduce that there is no control.
Does a thought control it?
No.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No. There is no controller.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
There is no decision. A decision would be a thought and there is no thought involved.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No. There is no self doing anything. Only the movement happening automatically.


Hugs!

Marcelo

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:29 pm

Hey Marcelo,

Okay...next is choice.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Emptynest and Forgetmenot

Postby EmptyNest » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:15 pm

Hi, Kay!
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
They pop up by themselves. The preferences and qualities only appear as thoughts, without any prior decision about them.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
It's as if I just watched the unfolding of events. I read what you asked me to do. A thought about the experiment appeared, actions arose. But nobody chose anything.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No one has chosen anything. A fully automatic action took one of the glasses and drank.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
No. A feeling is just thoughts and sensation and they make no choice. I think this "feeling about an I" is just a habit.

Hugs!

Marcelo.


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