seeing not just intellectualizing

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tissetatten
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seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:45 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

Well, iv seen talks and read books from ppl like adyashanti, mooji, your book gateless gatecrashersh, tolli, jed McKenna and so on.
I just bought your outher book liberation unleashed witch i am about to read. I have conceptually understood that the Word I, me, self are just linguistics. They are words that are made up, not real or physical.


What are you looking for at LU?

I dont get the seeing, i can Think and theorize and understand it intellectually, but i havent felt a shift, or laughter. This is what im looking for, help with seeing and shifting. I dont expect magical, miraculous light and visions, or anything fancy. Its just that i feel what can be more important that knowing our true nature? What we really are (or are not) the way the World was ment to be seen Before we humans distordet it with concepts, language, and symbols.


What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Well iv read your book gateless, and i have tried to do answer those same questions that you ask in there. I felt that helped me understand, so i expect it will be along those ines, but maybe i will "get it" if the questions are directed to my psyche? I am greatfull for any pointers, or tips at all.


What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Iv done yoga, tantra, satsang, meditation, read books, watched videos, psycology, gone thorugh identety crises, and depression, and dark Knight, Iv inqured but as i said it stays at an intellectual understanding. I dont know how to go farther on my own, i just keep reading more books and finding new ppl, i wanted to do autolisys but didnt understand how to. I feel like i really need some help here, and i really hope you are the ones to help me.


On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:39 am

Hi tissetatten and welcome to the LU forum. I'm Canfora and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.

After reading your introduction, it seems to me, that the only thing that you seem to not have done yet - like many people that say they get this intellectually - is looking to what is here now, as it is, to check if a self is real or as illusory as Santa Claus.
Well iv read your book gateless, and i have tried to do answer those same questions that you ask in there.
Since you have already read LU's book, maybe you can tell me what you did when the instruction of the guide was to look at something and check if that something is a self? What do you think looking is? How do you think it is done?

Looking forward to your answer,
C

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Thank you for replying!
Well i checked to see if i was the body. If u chop of ur body piece by piece u realise that your not that. And linguisicaly we say "my body" not i the body.
And if you try to find yourself in the mind you cannot do it either. Because the mind is just conditioning, and things that you have learned, memories and stuff that is stuch in the unconcous, the mind labels every experiance and eeverything it sees. The word i is something made up in language. If i were born in the jungle with no outher ppl there i wouldnt even know the words i, self, me. And again we say my thoughts my mind not that i am mind.
But there is still a sence of i as a seperet person, i see through my eyes not urs, if u hit ur toe i dont feel the pain. So i dont see this oneness. And i do plan for the future and so on it seems like my mind is looping on the same thoughts. Doesnt feel so liberating.

How i think looking is done and what it is..

Well iv noticed that my body acts without a me.
It breathes, it sees, it digests, if there is an itch ill scratch it without thinking. And even if the thought did arise to scratch that itch it wasnt something "i" did. The thought just came. I dont controle my thought they just arrise.

Thanx

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:02 am

Hello and thank you for your answer. Glad you're here.

You seem to have some expectations around what will happen when you are sure a separate self is an illusion. Notice that if it is true that a self is an illusion, then all that is going on now is already happening without a self and any expectation is about an imaginary future and self. So, try to keep expectations at bay and look to what is here now with fresh eyes, like if you are seeing things for the first time.

Apparently you already can see there isn't a little you inside the body or that is the body, and that a thinker can't be found, so... what can you see if you look to what is here that could be a you, a separate thing/entity, an I?

What seems to be a self at the time being?
Thanx
My pleasure!

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Well everything seem to be like normal.
I still have constant thoughts, im still an individual with my perticular talents, preferences and ideas (even if they are conditions and genetics) i din not laugh out loud and find it to be a big funny cosmic joke, like most ppls stuff iv read. Im still protective and want to build the best life for this body mind and leep it comfortable and happy. Im not careless or worry less about the future. So i dont think any big shift has happended. Im still attached to things i want to do and dont. So yeah your right i do have expectations. I expected to be much more free from these things

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:03 pm

What do you mean with "I am still an individual"?
So yeah your right i do have expectations. I expected to be much more free from these things
Do you see any evidence of the existence of a me that could be freer?

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:12 pm

Well i mean regardless of if there is an entity i or not. This mind has a conditioning that is unique to its experiences and things it has picked up douring its lifetime. And the body has its genetics and talents.
Well the existance of a "me" as just the empty word no there is not. But there is this body and mind and a willingness to pusch it in some direction rather then an outher. There is still grasping and pushing of things, dreams and wants and things "i" dont want. A lot of time spent thinking of the future and drifting in thought. Not so mutch here. Currently im reading L.Us second book seeng if that makes anything clearer. "I" still see this body mind unit seperate from everything else.

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:06 pm

This mind has a conditioning that is unique to its experiences and things it has picked up douring its lifetime. And the body has its genetics and talents.
Are you expecting this to change? Why would seeing the illusion make this change?
But there is this body and mind and a willingness to pusch it in some direction rather then an outher. There is still grasping and pushing of things, dreams and wants and things "i" dont want. A lot of time spent thinking of the future and drifting in thought.
Are you expecting this to change? Why would seeing the illusion make this change?
Currently im reading L.Us second book seeng if that makes anything clearer.
The illusion doesn't stop when you realize it's an illusion. Even after you realize a rainbow isn't a thing, if the conditions are in place, you will still see a rainbow. Do you expect selfing - thinking and feeling like a self - to come to an halt?
"I" still see this body mind unit seperate from everything else.
Let's say this stops. Would you be able to live a normal human life?
What would happen to your ingrained protective mechanisms if you reached a permanent "no separation" state? Imagine they stop working. It is very likely that you would stop doing basic and useful actions, like running when a car is speeding your way or washing your teeth. I suppose that even the Buddha itself took care of the human aspect of its existence.

Look to what you call the "body mind unit". Would you say you are looking at life? Or the "body mind unit" isn't life? Do you see any physical evidences that the body you see isn't life itself, like everything else that is here? Where is the separation?

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:24 pm

Well the body and mind are animated yes its alive. But i dont see how there is 1 life animating everything. If a bird dies the whole forest doesnt die. The seperation between "me" and everything els seems to be my skin. "I" can experiance trough this body, but if u hurt yourself i cant feel it. I see through "my" eyes not yours and so on.
I am not saing i think i should live in this state im just saying i havent had a glimps of this no seperetness or oneness, just heard and read about it.

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:28 pm

And well yes i guess i did think some things would come to a halt. It seems weird to get nervous still, or worried about safety and have a still cluttered and buzzy mind. I guess i am expecting to find the thing funny and laugh about it or have some sort of aha reaction that still hasnt happened.

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:05 am

The seperation between "me" and everything els seems to be my skin.
Does this mean there is a me inside the skin?
"I" can experiance trough this body, but if u hurt yourself i cant feel it. I see through "my" eyes not yours and so on.
It seems you believe the seeing is being done by you? Check if this is true. Can you turn it off? Make it stronger or weaker? Improve it? Change it in any way? Can you find any evidences that the seeing is something that is being done by a you? Is it personal?
And well yes i guess i did think some things would come to a halt. It seems weird to get nervous still, or worried about safety and have a still cluttered and buzzy mind. I guess i am expecting to find the thing funny and laugh about it or have some sort of aha reaction that still hasnt happened.
It seems some features of your experience make you believe a self must be experiencing them. Notice how they're experiences you would prefer not having. Maybe the bad experiences are the ones that make you question what is experiencing them, because you hope that seeing there is no self will make them better or make them stop? Notice how seeking with a motive - trying to make things better for you - makes the illusion that there is a self stronger. Let's say you are having a wonderful experience. Would this experience mean there is no self?

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:22 am

There is percieving sensations from the body, from what the body touches, like slippers, the mattress and so on. Hearing cant happen without sound, seeing cant happen if there is nothing to see so in that case there is no bounderies.

There is not a me inside the skin im just saying thats where the awareness seems to be, if this body falls a sleep and no dreams are remembered i cant say iv been aware of anything.

When "bad" things come up there is a contraction happening in my chest. There has been conditioning to assoiate this feeling with a me. Right now when that happens i try to remember that this is just conditioning and not evedence of a me. And just try to feel the feeling and let the thoughts pass.

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:16 pm

When "bad" things come up there is a contraction happening in my chest. There has been conditioning to assoiate this feeling with a me. Right now when that happens i try to remember that this is just conditioning and not evedence of a me. And just try to feel the feeling and let the thoughts pass.
When you notice the conditioning you are seeing the illusion at play. It seems you think the focus in the sensations will ground you in the truth or something like that? Is there something inherently wrong with the conditioning and with the thinking? Let's say you practice feeling the sensations and you spend more time feeling sensations than getting lost in thoughts. Would you say this is an evidence that you aren't a separate self?

When you resist what is going on, the feeling that you are a self increases or decreases?

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tissetatten
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby tissetatten » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:50 am

Well you tell me then what you think i should do?
How will i understand boundlessness if not throughbthe scences?

And yes resisting makes the contractions in the chest wors and noticing its not personal helps it relax and lose ita power and grip. Everyone in the book has talked abput some relaxation of contraction so yes i focus on it when i tence.
When i resist it feels like egoic grasping or pushing rather then being ok with that is.

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Canfora
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Re: seeing not just intellectualizing

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:43 am

Well you tell me then what you think i should do?
How will i understand boundlessness if not throughbthe scences?
I don't know what you should do. I'm a guide, not a teacher or something similar. My only role here is to ask question that point to the fact that a separate self is an illusion.
Are you saying that you want to understand boundlessness using the senses? That's like saying that you want to feel the sun light by thinking about the sun. Aren't the senses always on? Why would you need to understand what is being perceived? Do you need to understand something to experience it? When you were a little kid and didn't have this pull to understand, wasn't live being fully experienced? When you are enjoying something without trying to understand what is going on, isn't life being fully experienced? Is understanding = sensing?


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