New one-no one

[Amarilia]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I know there is no inherent self, but I do need help to see when I actually act like there is self. I think that I don't notice when I'm reacting by that (self, which actually doesn't even exist). This is very difficult for me to answer, because I'm not so good in english....

What are you looking for at LU?
I've read so many books and been different kind of courses to learn "live in the moment", "get to know real me " but still I feel like I just don't get it totally! Like I fall back to old habits. When I heard about this, LU, I was convinced that I've been going in wrong direction. It is something I've been thinking a lot for a few months (that there is no me), but haven't know how to really understand or see it. So little help would be nice :)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To push me to see something which might be obvious? Or to "point a light" so I see through my own lies..? Support to go on, because now I'm feeling that I'm going to right direction finally. It's like I fall back to old patterns.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
They can be good and helpful, I mean some practise like meditation, chikung, yoga if it helps to be present. But how to present when you are not doing the practise? And I've become a little bit "allergic" to word spiritual and seeking: maeby because that's something I've been doing for a years. Feels like I'm stuck.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[MichaelD]

Hi Amarilia,

I've read your preamble and would be very happy to work with you.

Do read, if you haven't already, all the guidelines and disclaimers on the Gate and check out the 'quote' method. Let me know if you have any problems.

I will ask questions and ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can. From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.

Please let me know if this is all ok with you.

Regards,

Michael

[Amarilia]

Hi Michael!
Thank you very much for your answer. And sorry that I reply so late; didn't actually find my start message here at once. I'm not so good in english (or technologia), so I'm thinking if it's gonna be a problem?

I've been reading now Gateless Gatecrashers free pdf-version (thank for writers!) and I have that LU-app on phone (it's funny how I'm avoiding the words "I", "my" now, or it's harder to use those words since I found this place. It wakes me think "who is I" etc).

So, how should we go on? I read the guidelines and disclaimers, but not sure if I understood everything right because of this languade-thing... Shall we be in contact in private or in this forum? I've so many questions popping out :D

Regards, Amarilia

[MichaelD]

Hi Amarilia,

I am glad you have replied. Let's use the forum as it is the usual way if that is ok with you. Your English is fine - I can understand you so please don't worry about that!

First of all we need to clear out anything that won't help. Please write down for me your expectations for me and any concerns or worries you may have. Please be thorough and honest including anything however large or small.

Many thanks.

Michael.

[Amarilia]

Hi Michael!
Thank you. Let's try. I don't have so many expectations for you, just to have someone who can help (or point) me see if I'm on the wrong direction.

I need someone to answer my questions, because now when I've read about LU and Gate, all the questions are coming out. Like: there's no self or I, but who or what makes plans and desicions? For example "shall I go running or swimming?", "what I'm gonna do for living?". It can't be all just reacting or what? And what's the difference between animals instincts and humanbeings doing without self?

Then I read a huge thing from LU app about awareness. That there isn't such a thing either (or did I misunderstood something?). Because until now I've been thinking that there's no self but awareness behind that. Like I read Eckhart Tolles books about awareness and everything. So I'm little bit confused now.

Thank you for your time, Heidi

[MichaelD]

Hi Heidi,

Thanks for your post. It brings up a few key points.

Firstly in order to avoid confusion it is best to stop reading spiritual books or looking online at what gurus teach etc. Here we are simply focused on you looking to find out whether there is, or is not, a fixed separate self. Generally I will not answer questions and I certainly won't teach at all as my role is to guide and give pointers. Then you search or look within your own experience. In that sense it is far easier than trying to understand what spiritual teachers mean when they speak or write.

In relation to some of your questions all I can advise you to do is to let them drop. Some will get covered during the inquiry (but does awareness exist or not is not where we can start) or resolved if you are successful and realize no-self.

In terms of expectations I was really meaning what do you expect if you see there is no separate self? Could you have a look at that again as some folk have very inappropriate expectations and we need to address that first before we can get underway with your exploration.

Your task then is to write back with whatever you think it will be like if you successfully see/ realize no fixed separate self? So for example will you be enlightened? Do you think you will ever suffer again? Will you be eternally blissful? Will it make hardly any difference at all?

Warm regards,

Michael.

[Amarilia]

Hi Michael!
Thank you, I dropped my questions :)

In terms of expectations I was really meaning what do you expect if you see there is no separate self? Could you have a look at that again as some folk have very inappropriate expectations and we need to address that first before we can get underway with your exploration.

First thing that rose was "I expect nothing" if I see there is no separate self. But after a moment I think I have to have some expectations, otherwise I wouldn't be in this forum now. I wanna see through illusions and lies so that I can live the life "raw". As it really is. Without clinging on to feelings, thoughts. Without attachment. I find it difficult to put in words (or maeby is just this foreign language...). I wanna live without "me": for me that means that I no there is so called me, but I know it's not real. I don't go in it or live by it. It's like I'm beside it. I don't create more suffering. I also expect something permanent seeing. I feel like I've had moments without self. But permanent seeing? Like I don't fall back to unseeing..? Maeby this sounds crazy...

Your task then is to write back with whatever you think it will be like if you successfully see/ realize no fixed separate self? So for example will you be enlightened? Do you think you will ever suffer again? Will you be eternally blissful? Will it make hardly any difference at all?

I think after that I'm more free? I don't take things personally because I see there is no such a thing (person, self, me); or it's not real. So I don't get offended. Nothing real changes: I still feel emotions, but they come and go. I don't let them control my actions. Will I ever suffer again? Maeby, but I don't create more suffering by creating stories or interpretations when something sad or bad happens in life. Will I be enlightened? Depends what that word means... I've never understood the word. Will I be eternally blissful? Also, what that means? Zen? Maeby I'll be more peaceful when I see there's no self?

Regards, Heidi Amarilia

[MichaelD]

Hi Heidi,

Thanks for your response.

I wanna see through illusions and lies so that I can live the life "raw". As it really is. Without clinging on to feelings, thoughts. Without attachment.

I think after that (seeing no-self) I'm more free? I don't take things personally because I see there is no such a thing (person, self, me); or it's not real. So I don't get offended. Nothing real changes: I still feel emotions, but they come and go. I don't let them control my actions.

I don't create more suffering by creating stories or interpretations when something sad or bad happens in life

Fantastic. these expectations of yours are unusually realistic so we have nothing to concern ourselves with here.

The key attitude is one of exploration - like being a scientist but not cold and analytical. Rather an open exploration so if 'looking with the heart' makes any sense at all to you then that is the way forward!

OK let's begin.

What I want you to do is sit down quietly, let yourself relax and settle and then report to me from your direct experience. So for example you may notice feelings of pressure or warmth, tingliness, you may notice sounds from around you etc, etc.

Once we are sure you can tune into your direct experience we are ready to start looking for your 'self'.

Warm regards,

Michael.

[Amarilia]

Hi Michael!

Good to hear, so we can continue.

I did what you told: I sat. First I felt anxious (having a rough times for a couple of days now and it was harder to settle down.) First I even felt resistance to sit and settle. "I" was explaining to "myself" (!) that" maeby I'll do this later when it's less stormy". Then I decided to do it now and not to hear my mind... I felt my (now peaceful and deep) breathing in my stomach. I felt my fingers getting warmer. I hear laundrymachine (I'm still sitting on the same place where I started, but now also writing this).

That's all.

Best regards, Heidi A

[MichaelD]

HI Heidi,

Thanks for your post when you were working against adversity.

Yes, it seems like you can distinguish between sensory input and the overlay of thoughts. You may have also noticed that as you sat down, and began to settle by focusing on sensation, that the thought stories began to diminish? It is very valuable to see this and is a large part of the value and power of body based practices like yoga and Tai Chi etc.

That you can distinguish sensation from thought will be key to this inquiry.

Feel free to repeat the exercise to consolidate this important skill.

So moving on.

I felt my (now peaceful and deep) breathing in my stomach. I felt my fingers getting warmer. I hear laundrymachine....

Really?

What and where is this "I" that is breathing, feels fingers getting warmer and hears a machine?

Game on!

Happy hunting.

Michael

[Amarilia]

First came a big smile on my face, when I read your last post. Then confusion. I can see there is nothing “who” is breathing or feeling warmness in fingers. Didn’t found such a thing. Do I understand it? No. Still wondering where does this all stuff arise? What is that what/who decides to do something? Gets the ideas? Where does all the ideas come from? Or arise. Who or what creates?

Br, H.A

[MichaelD]

Hi Heidi,

Thanks for your post. Lets try and see if we can increase the pace a little. We can't always but let's aim to post daily so we can get some momentum going - if that is Ok with you?

I can see there is nothing “who” is breathing or feeling warmness in fingers. Didn’t found such a thing.

Great looking!! Whenever you get the opportunity re-enforce this seeing. There is no one there, it is just that we think there is!

You then go on to ask some questions;

What is that what/who decides to do something? Gets the ideas? Where does all the ideas come from?

We will go with your flow - but it is you that will answer your questions not me!! We will put decision making to one side for now but we will come back to it later. We will focus on thoughts so here are some questions.

The core issue is are they thought by you, an "I", or not?

Can you stop them?

Can you 'create' or choose the next thought?

Can you only have happy thoughts?

Either sitting in meditation, or/and in every day life observe thoughts and see if they are 'yours' or are they just occurring?

I look forward to your answers.

Have fun.

Michael

[Amarilia]

Hi Michael!

Thank you for your quick answer and help.

Lets try and see if we can increase the pace a little. We can't always but let's aim to post daily so we can get some momentum going - if that is Ok with you?

Yes, let’s do it: I will try to mail daily now. Have to admit, that last time was slightly difficult for me, to look. That’s why it took more time to answer.

The core issue is are they thought by you, an "I", or not?

No.

Can you stop them?

Thoughts? Maeby in the middle of thinking yes, but I think that first they just pop up, arise. Then I might be able to stop or at least change them.

Can you 'create' or choose the next thought?

No :D This is actually quite funny, I don't know why. But no, I can't.

Can you only have happy thoughts?

No.

Either sitting in meditation, or/and in every day life observe thoughts and see if they are 'yours' or are they just occurring?

They are just occurring, or arising.

So... Nothing more to say now. I hope I answered all the questions.

Heidi

[MichaelD]

Hi Heidi,

Well done! Great seeing!

You have just seen that thought is not 'yours' but are just occurring.

There is only one area for you to look at again:

Can you stop them?
Thoughts? Maeby in the middle of thinking yes, but I think that first they just pop up, arise. Then I might be able to stop or at least change them.

See if this is really true.

Who is really able to change them?

Also

Engage in a problem solving activity so that you are looking to see what is happening during directed thinking. Thoughts arise largely on topic but investigate to see if they are still just arriving or is there an "I" doing it?

We will then investigate choice and whether there is a chooser.

Warmly,

michael

[Amarilia]

Hi Michael!
You are giving me great help here, thank you very much!

It’s true; I am not able to change my thoughts. They’re just occuring. On and on. But when ”I” am paying attention on thoughts (or not ”I”, but getting aware of them) it changes them. Or even stops for a very short moment? Not really sure of this... But I think that I see now that there is nobody or nothing who’s choosing thoughts. They just go on and on like water in river. This is very new way of looking for me. Or understanding.

It’s so late, got to get some sleep now...

Heidi