An end to seeking possible

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Cyclewave
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An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:49 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

There is no permanent ego, I, nothing to cling to or hold on to. But the apparent self based in the body, emotions, thoughts, is strongly identified now and difficult to let go of.


What are you looking for at LU?

A few pointers to see the moon, not the finger. Concepts are endless and so are volumes of esoterica, and knowledge is endless but ultimately awareness is stuck in ideas...apparently. How to end this and be free.


What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Grateful for the chance to have a direct conversation with someone who is closer to the present and may see a way for me to come into present/presence. I have been to many Satsangs/ Retreats/ Ceremonies, all over the world, for many years, hoping to end seeking and begin the now.


What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Krishna Consciousness devotees gave me a Bhagavad Gita when i was a teenager, and reading it and looking at the pictures left a deep impression that this world is not all there is. At 17 I had a profound awakening to the oneness, but it didn't stay more than a day. I began trying to recreate that awareness through self guided meditations, concentrations fasting etc. I learned meditation from Sri Chinmoy, then began Zen after reading 4 pillars. A road trip across country took me to communes, Ba-Hai faith, Fundamentalist Christianity, Sufism, Gurdjieff and on and on. I spent time with Osho, Baba Ram Dass and many other teachers through writings and talks. Traveled in Asia and India. It's been 40 years or so of traveling. The last 7 years were spent in Ayahuasca ceremonies, which allowed some purification to begin, leading to Vipassana and daily meditation. When I heard somenon-duality talks I realized that "I" am ripe for letting go of this story and coming into the present. I have been trying to find a teacher ever since.


On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:10 pm

Hi Cyclewave,
Welcome to LU.
It will be my pleasure to have a conversation with you. All I ask is you writing from your experience alone, not from what other teachers say, so feel free to express your own understanding in own words. It's a good idea to stop reading any material from teachers and concentrate on your process. Write every day even if I don't answer. Use this platform as you place to investigate..

What kind of freedom are you looking for?
What are you searching for precisely? What do you expect that seeing no self is going to be like?
Take your time and answer with full honesty

Kind regards
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:29 pm

Hi Cyclewave,
Welcome to LU.
It will be my pleasure to have a conversation with you. All I ask is you writing from your experience alone, not from what other teachers say, so feel free to express your own understanding in own words. It's a good idea to stop reading any material from teachers and concentrate on your process. Write every day even if I don't answer. Use this platform as you place to investigate..

What kind of freedom are you looking for?
What are you searching for precisely? What do you expect that seeing no self is going to be like?
Take your time and answer with full honesty

Kind regards
A million thank yous. The freedom I'm looking for is just freedom to end the separation from life and others. To stop labeling and questioning and identifying with everything that is keeping me out of the presence of life. To be specific I am searching for the no-self that I have had glimpses of.

"I" feel strongly identified with the self as manifested in a mind/brain/thought process, like a tiny homonculus behind the third eye controlling the show, and sometimes feel like all the zen koans/non-duality pointers are nothing more than tricks to send a person into a state of depersonalization, something like more forgetfulness like Alzheimers or something.

On a basic level I expect that the freedom will manifest as a way to go through life more harmoniously, without the constant nagging of the monkey mind labeling and dividing everything. On an egoic level it tells me that it will give me special powers and status, inflating it into more desire gratification, which I think is false, but still cling to some level of worldly accomplishment through that.

There is this fear of complete surrender and a strong clinging to the known. But sometimes it lets go on its own and it is partially seen through, or the membrane becomes thinner??. Then the barriers of fear return and contraction takes hold in the heart, guts....forget the brain, it is useless at this point, so full of delusion.

I will stop reading and listening to all the talks and stuff per your advice, and just concentrate on looking. I often sit in meditation but am not sure if this can be a hindrance if it is done wrong?? So how best to look at the place where the apparent "I" resides? That is my first puzzle i suppose. I know this "I me my" language is somehow incorrect but that is what comes up as well.

So grateful for your reply, took a few days to see where to find it in the forum as there wasn't a notification set but here "I" am.

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:35 pm

Great, thank you very much for reply.
How would you end something that does not exist? You say that you are looking to end separation form life. But separation from life is an idea, a story, a belief, not reality. Have a look for yourself, what is separate from life? What informs you about something being sepatrate from life? How do you know about separateness?

Where is the sense of separateness? Which particular sensation is separating life from not life? Where is that membrane. Do you see, hear, taste, smell, touch it or it's an image in the head?

Really look into it. Write what feels true.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:48 pm

Great, thank you very much for reply.
How would you end something that does not exist? You say that you are looking to end separation form life. But separation from life is an idea, a story, a belief, not reality. Have a look for yourself, what is separate from life? What informs you about something being sepatrate from life? How do you know about separateness?

Where is the sense of separateness? Which particular sensation is separating life from not life? Where is that membrane. Do you see, hear, taste, smell, touch it or it's an image in the head?

Really look into it. Write what feels true.

Sending love
Hi Ilona,
Thank you for your reply. I am looking for this separation and what comes up is just a pressure in the brain area, and there is a long and elaborate story, starting with the fall of man, ending in my life where something happened to put this diving bell of separation on my head, I do feel it. I understand intellectually, I think, that there can't be anything separate, but the story persists. Waiting for an explosion to happen to end the separateness, maybe trying to force it through penance, renunciation, sitting uncomfortably, til I'm worthy.
If only I could look and see. But how and where to look. I'm in the head, sometimes in the gut but even then the attention is divided and clinging to the story about separation.
Part of the story revolves around when oneness did happen, sitting in concentration and then poof, a big bang and I was in the stars and the earth, seeing everything all at once out of time. So I held onto that moment.

Looking, looking, I will sit with this for a while, seeking the place of separation, the not-I...where is it? I want to vomit out all my resistance, let it take over and annihilate this feeling. Thoughts are on a screen in my forehead, I think about the allegory of the cave. "My" life has been an illusion and it fills me with regret. Yet still I cling to it, and the concepts that are so dear to me. So yes, If I cant see, hear, touch or taste it, and it is an image in the head, where to go with that...I will continue looking til the next message, wanted to write something already to keep the process happening...

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:10 pm

Good work putting your thoughts down.

Try this little exercise.
Imagine you are holding a spoon. Close eyes and make up an image fully and vividly. Feel the shape, size, weight, texture, temperature, all of it. Hold it in the mind. Feel the sensations that arise.
Then open eyes,
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear?
Was there an explosion?
Was there anything that you could get rid of?
Try to get rid of imagined spoon, how do you do that? Try and tell me.

And for the last part, go get a spoon and observe it, see how it feels, when a spoon is actually in the hand. What is the difference?

Tell me, were sensations real both times?
Did you own the imagined spoon?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:48 am

The spoon is still there in my mind. The imagined spoon is a little less solid then the real one, but real as well. It was just not there when I opened my eyes, but persisted somewhere...In the realm of platonic ideas perhaps?
I own the imagined spoon in the same way as the real one. Conceptually. Not in any permanent sense.
There was no explosion, just the feeling like waking from a dream as a child and the thing you thought you had is gone. I am keeping the real spoon in my pocket and waiting for something about it to reveal itself. Means trying too hard, I suppose.
The real spoon has weight, solidity, the imagined one I am somehow not able to conjure into such a solidity. Different states of energy?
Also, the imaginary spoon is next to it somehow. Both are real and unreal at the same time and in some ways. A paradox. I can put many words to this simple exercise and none of them mean anything, but it feels useful to focus the attention on something a little different.



Good work putting your thoughts down.

Try this little exercise.
Imagine you are holding a spoon. Close eyes and make up an image fully and vividly. Feel the shape, size, weight, texture, temperature, all of it. Hold it in the mind. Feel the sensations that arise.
Then open eyes,
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear?
Was there an explosion?
Was there anything that you could get rid of?
Try to get rid of imagined spoon, how do you do that? Try and tell me.

And for the last part, go get a spoon and observe it, see how it feels, when a spoon is actually in the hand. What is the difference?

Tell me, were sensations real both times?
Did you own the imagined spoon?

Sending love

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:33 am

Thank you to reply. Let's establish terminology here. Let's call real that which is experienced whether it is believed or not. And unreal that which disappears when you stop imagining it.
So your imagined spoon can not be real and not real, it is imagined. Can you see what I'm saying? So let's make a distinction for this investigation.
Is a separate self/I real or imagined?
What happens to the i when you stop imagining it? That happens a lot throgh the day, when you get into some activity where you no longer notice anything other than the activity. Where does the i go then? Does it return?
Is the separate self constantly here or it's something that comes and goes?


Write what feels absolutely true to you,
Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:16 pm

Ok,
"I" "Think" I understand, the separate self is imagined. At times of so-called peak experience or flow, it does go away for moments. Where it goes? It was never there, but like a dream it's hard to wake from. Sometimes the dream is good and sometimes bad, but when one is in it it feels real even though it is imagined.
I understand this with my intellect, but trying to do that subtle shift to see the absolute reality that the separate self has to be and must be an illusion, is difficult.
Mostly it feels like sophistry, a semantic trick to try to get me to change my pronouns.
So grateful for your time and guidance.
I will sit quietly and look more...I have suspended all other lines of inquiry and distractions to focus on this.
Thank you
Thank you to reply. Let's establish terminology here. Let's call real that which is experienced whether it is believed or not. And unreal that which disappears when you stop imagining it.
So your imagined spoon can not be real and not real, it is imagined. Can you see what I'm saying? So let's make a distinction for this investigation.
Is a separate self/I real or imagined?
What happens to the i when you stop imagining it? That happens a lot throgh the day, when you get into some activity where you no longer notice anything other than the activity. Where does the i go then? Does it return?
Is the separate self constantly here or it's something that comes and goes?


Write what feels absolutely true to you,
Sending love

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:03 pm

Language is what built the illusion, so no wonder it feels like semantic trick. It is. I wrote this a while ago, http://markedeternal.blogspot.mx/2012/0 ... guage.html
Can you see how language itself creates a subject doing action?
Look in actuality, where is a subject and where is action? When walking, where is the you that walks? In breathing where is the breather? Look in ordinary everyday actions, where is the doer? Is the doer here without language?

Explore and write what you notice.
Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:44 am

Thank you always for your quick replies. Reading your writings feels like christmas morning. Is someone going to come into the room and turn on the light? In the story of Nona, she says she doesn't feel like the actor playing the character of Nona, but I do feel like the actor playing me. Why am I so identified with that role. It is mostly unsatisfactory and I am ready for a different role, yet I am typecast, like Gilligan on Gilligans island!

Thoughts are all based in words...and looking sometimes also happens in words...where is the self? Who is the I? Where is the experiencer? How can there be no self? It is terrifying to let go of one's fundamental identity, so I cling tighter at times, trying to make peace with the fear and thank it for it's service in my survival as a "unit."

Sometimes thoughts are distant and experience is going on, mostly sounds and feelings of breath, heartbeat, swallowing. Yet the answers persist in coming...here I am, controling the show, thinking about the past and future. It does seem like the membrane into the present is thinner in other moments, like past present and future are all happening simultaneously somehow, don't know how to explain that feeling.

"I" am still the star of the story though, even though it is a story. I can't be in someone else or be nowhere. Feeling like I'm in an egg and can't break the shell. Maybe the zen stick? I'm sorry to be so dense, but there are some moments of lightness also.

Language is what built the illusion, so no wonder it feels like semantic trick. It is. I wrote this a while ago, http://markedeternal.blogspot.mx/2012/0 ... guage.html
Can you see how language itself creates a subject doing action?
Look in actuality, where is a subject and where is action? When walking, where is the you that walks? In breathing where is the breather? Look in ordinary everyday actions, where is the doer? Is the doer here without language?

Explore and write what you notice.
Sending love

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:03 pm

If you were an actor, you could quit the role and choose a different one. Can you?
What if there is no actor at all, just a role playing out by itself? What would be lost?

It's a bit like a rollercoaster ride, you may imagine and believe that you are driving the car, but it goes where it goes, it does not step off the rail. It's a ride. There is no driver, no matter if you imagine driving it or not. So is this actor thing, the role is. Acting is. Talking is. Relating is. The actor isn't.

Did you work with the language article? What do you notice about the language itself? It says that there must be an actor to play a role, is it true?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:57 pm

Ok so when the story is told without I as the center of it, the same things are still happening. Being, breathing, driving, thinking. I am rereading your writings, and understand that the I is a fiction. A character, created by language.

But; to say there is no decider making choices like what to eat for breakfast, that is harder to see. No free will, just along for the ride. Can the "I" separateness be different than the observer? Still feels like there is an observer observing the story of the I, if that makes sense.

Rereading your writing about the trick of language. Still can't just see through the illusion. If there is not an actor there can be no role played. Just an empty stage.Is the actor just a robot? Or emptiness, nothing happening at all. How to look directly?

Thank you for your time and responses and patience. It feels like this is the most important thing to understand yet somewhere I'm getting lost.

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Cyclewave
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Cyclewave » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:35 pm

Investigating, saying to myself, "look directly, where is the self" is it anywhere? Something feels like it's shifting, a level of relaxation is happening. Feels like I'm clinging to identification with the story of me by a thread. Like a pressure in the head. No self to be found but lots of cloudiness.
Is the answer as simple as a trick of language? How should I let go of I, if it's I that's trying to let go? Use a thorn to remove a thorn? What does that mean? ARRRGH so many questions and I know the answers are non-answers just out of the reach of language...so sitting continues, and looking, for now. Thank You.

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Ilona
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Re: An end to seeking possible

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:20 pm

I feel your frustration.
Consider this, there is no i to let go of i. There is no i as in zero.
There is a belief, that I is the centre point, the manager of the body. Is it true? Is it i that is moving the body or body is moving then thoughts come in and say 'I did it'?
For fun, tell body to do something, like to run instead of walk.
Then for fun too, watch how body moves and say 'I did not know this was going to happen'

Does body require you to tell it how to pump the blood, grow hair, digest, walk, eat etc? Are you in control of this body's functioning? Are you in control of other bodies?

Describe what you notice, when these questions are asked.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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