Final Seeing

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Metta1
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Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:53 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is manufactured from a combination of sensations, thoughts, pictures that combine in a belief in a me, mine or I.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've had several experienced seeing through the 'I' but here I am again. I would like a thorough guided seeing to knock out any beliefs or processes that are operating to create an I. Often an external party can see things you are missing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A good thorough analysis of what constitutes my belief in an existent I. Hopefully an external observer can help me see things I cannot see that will assist me to have a final, complete seeing of the non existence of the I.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A spontaneous awakening 20 years ago has left me trying anything and everything. Have had some success with some practices such as awareness practices, headless way, insight meditation and other things. Currently not subscribed to any particular practice but meditation has become a strong habit using choiceless awareness.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:50 am

Hello Metta,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate inherent self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself, that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This exploration is not about discovering what you are. It is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you are not.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Metta1
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:59 pm

Hi Kay

Wow. This is great. Very happy to have you as my guide. I have read all the documents and how to use the quote function.
Please learn to use the quote function
. It may get better.

Can't wait to get started.

Thanks for your reply

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:31 am

Hi Metta,

Yep, you have the quote function down....good one..thank you! :) How would you like to be called? What is your first name?

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought in and of itself does not contain any experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration.

So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 3 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions in blue text and to answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.
Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Metta1
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:54 am

Hi Kay

Thanks for your response. Happy to post daily and will definitely just LOOK. Most people just call me "J". So I am happy with that.
How will life change?
I don't have any expectations of change because what is being looked at is already here. However, without the self identification life just happens without it happening to 'anyone'.
How will you change?
From past experience I will feel more expansive and not so locked up and defending this little me sense.
What will be different?
Hopefully more flow and less identification with limitation.

Thanks again.

Cheers J

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:11 am

Hey J,
How will you change?
From past experience I will feel more expansive and not so locked up and defending this little me sense.
There is no past and there is no one/no thing defending the illusory self. An illusion cannot defend an illusion! It is only appearing thought that suggest something is defending something. We will look at thought indepth a little later.

First, we look at actual experience.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

The colour labelled 'cup' simply= colour
The smell labelled 'coffee', simply = smell,
The sensation labelled 'warmth' (of the coffee cup), simply = sensation.
The taste labelled 'coffee', simply = taste
The sound labelled 'tinkling' (spoon stirring the coffee), simply = sound
Thoughts ABOUT cup, coffee, spoon, making a cup of coffee and drinking the coffee etc, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Metta1
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:38 am

Hi Kay

I did the activity all afternoon and all this morning. It was even happening in my dream.
The colour labelled 'cup' simply= colour
The smell labelled 'coffee', simply = smell,
The sensation labelled 'warmth' (of the coffee cup), simply = sensation.
The taste labelled 'coffee', simply = taste
The sound labelled 'tinkling' (spoon stirring the coffee), simply = sound
Thoughts ABOUT cup, coffee, spoon, making a cup of coffee and drinking the coffee etc, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
It is becoming very clear that no doer is required.

Seeing the world as just an image appearing is very obvious, although at times it was a movie. All happening without anyone needing to be present. I really like the use of 'image' or 'movie' because it doesn't imply a seer or a looker. Similarly with sound - just happening, taste - independent of a taster. It was a bit harder to notice 'all' thought as thought but was able to catch it intermittently.

I also see that the self sense is a visual image created in the mind drawing an imaginary shape of the body/head. It seems to be quite automatic and almost a habit of self referencing. Like a self is being created over and over again.
There is no past and there is no one/no thing defending the illusory self. An illusion cannot defend an illusion!
This statement really had an impact and shook something loose. I see that there is no past, only thought happening in the present. The illusion at this stage feels related to the body/head image creation as I mentioned above.

All very interesting and remarkably powerful.

Really enjoying the exploration - thanks so much Kay.

I will keep going until I hear from you.

Cheers

J

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:47 am

Hey J,
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
It is becoming very clear that no doer is required.
Seeing the world as just an image appearing is very obvious, although at times it was a movie. All happening without anyone needing to be present. I really like the use of 'image' or 'movie' because it doesn't imply a seer or a looker. Similarly with sound - just happening, taste - independent of a taster. It was a bit harder to notice 'all' thought as thought but was able to catch it intermittently.
We will be taking an indepth look at thought shortly. But yes, do keep breaking down daily activities for a few more days so that you really start to notice AE and not what thought says about AE.
I also see that the self sense is a visual image created in the mind drawing an imaginary shape of the body/head. It seems to be quite automatic and almost a habit of self referencing. Like a self is being created over and over again.
Lovely noticing, J! Yes, it is like an imprint, but as you noticed the imprint is a ‘mental’ image.
Does an image know anything about a body/head or a self sense?
There is no past and there is no one/no thing defending the illusory self. An illusion cannot defend an illusion!
This statement really had an impact and shook something loose. I see that there is no past, only thought happening in the present. The illusion at this stage feels related to the body/head image creation as I mentioned above.
Yep…thoughts are only ever happening now that SEEM to be describing a past…but they are only ever appearing now. Same goes for images, be they ‘visual’ or ‘mental’.

Let’s have a look at the idea of an image with actual experience (AE).

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Metta1
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:36 am

Hi Kay

I will definitely keep the AE going over the next while and also begin to explore the 'Apple' and image of self sense etc. Will report again tomorrow.

Thanks J

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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:32 am

Hi Kay

AE continuing
Does an image know anything about a body/head or a self sense?
This was great. Of course not. I see it is just an image. It doesn't imply anything other than image. Whew what a relief.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No apple is found. Only characteristics colour, smell, taste, which thought labels an apple. However, I notice there is a characteristic of shape inferred as well.

I also notice that thought is an almost automatic response to any stimulus. A sound is heard and thought 'crow' follows a split second after etc.

Will continue AE until I hear from you.

Cheers

J

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:59 am

Hi J,

Just love the fact that you are so observant and willing to LOOK…thank-you! 
Does an image know anything about a body/head or a self sense?
This was great. Of course not. I see it is just an image. It doesn't imply anything other than image. Whew what a relief.
Nice! Try this to examine the solidity of the head.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No apple is found. Only characteristics colour, smell, taste, which thought labels an apple. However, I notice there is a characteristic of shape inferred as well.
And what are shapes but different patterns of colour!
I also notice that thought is an almost automatic response to any stimulus. A sound is heard and thought 'crow' follows a split second after etc.
Yes, exactly! So, even from that can you see that there is no control over whether or not a thought arises!
Just as a quickie exercise...listen for a sound, and when the automatic label appears just ignore it.
Without the label, would it be known that the sound was a crow, or it is just sound?

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Metta1
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:03 am

Hi Kay
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
It is definitely a story about a head. There is only sensation. These stories are tricky.
s a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?
It seems easy now to separate pressure points as pressure points and I am able to disregard the story quite easily or it doesn't even arise.
Without the label, would it be known that the sound was a crow, or it is just sound?
This one is not as easy. The thoughts come up so quick they almost blend with the sound. I have to actively and consciously dismiss the thought 'crow'. I will try and isolate one particular sound and see what happens.

Cheers

J

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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:44 am

Hi J,
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?
It seems easy now to separate pressure points as pressure points and I am able to disregard the story quite easily or it doesn't even arise.
Terrific! So you can do this with all and any body parts.
Without the label, would it be known that the sound was a crow, or it is just sound?
This one is not as easy. The thoughts come up so quick they almost blend with the sound. I have to actively and consciously dismiss the thought 'crow'. I will try and isolate one particular sound and see what happens.
While you try and isolate a particular sound, also have a look and see if you can find a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (hearer/hearing) of the sound and the sound (the known) itself?

Okay…so let’s start to have a look at these tricky thoughts.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Metta1
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Re: Final Seeing

Postby Metta1 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:00 am

Hi Kay

Its been a big day - we lost one of our cats last night. A massive lesson in impermanence!!!

It was good to have something to do other than just grieving.
Terrific! So you can do this with all and any body parts.
This one will need more time. A massive image of head and sensations resulted in a me - grieving. Body sensations of aching etc were quite easy to see as sensations though without the labels such as pain, heartache etc. Looking at them helped them to ease.
While you try and isolate a particular sound, also have a look and see if you can find a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (hearer/hearing) of the sound and the sound (the known) itself?
I've worked with this before. The sound seem to be in here although the mind tells me it is over there. I can feel the sound resonating in my body. Labelling of sound continues but I can see it as a separate event.

Quite intense thoughts today so plenty to work with.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Thoughts arise by themselves. Part B - See below with pick and choose.
Where are they coming from and going to
Thought appears to arise from nowhere and disappear into nowhere.
Can you predict your next thought?
Thought arise by themselves. Sometimes associated to events such as sounds. What the next thought will be is unknown.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Thoughts have a mind of their own - haha. I cannot select them.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Even when I tried to intend a thought, the question arose of where did the idea of the chosen thought come from? It is also thought arising by itself. This was very helpful because the idea of being able to intend a thought has kept me stuck for ages but where did the new thought come from? The intended thought is just another thought arising.
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
They can be short circuited by stopping them. But continue to appear by themselves.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No, although I wish!

Thanks Kay. I will keep working with the image and sensation creating a person.

Cheers

J

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Re: Final Seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:00 am

Hi J,
Its been a big day - we lost one of our cats last night. A massive lesson in impermanence!!!
That would have been a difficult day for you. The one constant in the flow of life is change. A seeming problem occurs when we desire pleasure over pain. Life is in constant flux and pleasure and pain are a part of that flux.
Terrific! So you can do this with all and any body parts.
This one will need more time. A massive image of head and sensations resulted in a me - grieving. Body sensations of aching etc were quite easy to see as sensations though without the labels such as pain, heartache etc. Looking at them helped them to ease.
We will be looking at the body later on, but for now just notice everything that is arising…the ‘aching’ the ‘grieving’ the ‘heartache’. They are an appearance. Can you stop them from appearing?

Just notice the thoughts that are appearing. Ignore the "content" of the thoughts. But rather just notice the nature of the thoughts themselves.
Notice how there is no "manufacturing process".
Notice how you're simply aware of them, and they're ALREADY fully formed.
And notice how random they are.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Thoughts have a mind of their own - haha. I cannot select them.
Yes! If you were the chooser of thought, why would you choose to think painful, negative or fearful thoughts!
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Even when I tried to intend a thought, the question arose of where did the idea of the chosen thought come from? It is also thought arising by itself. This was very helpful because the idea of being able to intend a thought has kept me stuck for ages but where did the new thought come from? The intended thought is just another thought arising.
Yes…nice looking! Intention is another thought form; a thought to do something and intentions arrive like thoughts arrive.
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
They can be short circuited by stopping them. But continue to appear by themselves.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Describe to me in precise detail how you formulate a thought/intention to stop a thought? How is it known that you stopped a thought…because a thought said so?


Here’s a little experiment. As you keep reading this paragraph, try not to think about ice cream. Don’t think about the colour or the texture or the taste of it. Don’t think about how it tastes on a hot summer’s day. Don’t think about how good it feels as it melts inside your mouth. Don’t think about how you have to keep licking around the edges to stop it from dripping on your fingers.
How’d you do? I bet you couldn't stop thinking about ice-cream!

So, let’s see how thought is the never ending commentator.

Find a TV team sport on TV or a Youtube clip that lasts for at least 5 minutes. The following link is to a game of soccer, but if you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTPxORAlT0Y


1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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