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Kiwi
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Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby Kiwi » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:16 am

Hi Shoonya
Thanks for the reply
...."I" refers to the mental image of mine. The mental image (collection of thoughts ..I like this, I hate this etc.) can't be touched, smelled or tasted. But it can be felt. Then it must be real .


Your “mental image” is of beliefs – habituated thoughts that the I/self uses to constructed the identity of Shoonya. What you can feel are the bodily sensations arising from those beliefs. For example, if you believe “I hate this” strongly then an energetic “charge” – an emotion – is generated. The feelings associated with it can manifest in the body as a sensation. I don’t doubt that you experience the feeling, but was the feeling caused by anything that is real?

If a sad movie is watched, an apparent feeling of “tightness” might arise as a result of the acting. Was the sadness or tightness caused by anything real? No, the movie is an illusion. The sadness is illusionary. It only became real when the person watching the movie bought into the illusion by associating the “I” with the sadness portrayed in the movie. True?

Mike
"...there's a system that searches for the Truth, and it's a process of challenging everything." - Richard Rose

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shoonya
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Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby shoonya » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:13 am

Hi Mike,
I don’t doubt that you experience the feeling, but was the feeling caused by anything that is real?
feelings are caused by thoughts...they happen but are not real (as previously understood).

Say a thought to help arise by seeing a man who is in trouble. By helping, I feel good as well. So this act of helping was real, and the happiness was felt. Though the act itself was followed by a thought (or belief), it produced a reality. I can't refuse the thoughts of helping, by saying that thoughts are not real! In this situation, that man was in need of help and I could see that.
It only became real when the person watching the movie bought into the illusion by associating the “I” with the sadness portrayed in the movie. True?
Yes, true.

But as you pointed out earlier, I am not experiencing it. Just on the metal level, I can understand what you are saying.

Thank You,
Shoonya

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Kiwi
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Location: Australia

Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby Kiwi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:54 am

Hi Shoonya

Thanks for the reply. Perhaps it is timely to point out that the beliefs that you have formed over many years are concerned with preserving the status quo. At the level of those beliefs, while they are held, there is a reluctance to change. When you write “I am not experiencing it” but can “understand what you are saying” you are writing of a frustration that is bound to continue while, whatever is said is being compared to those existing beliefs.

To progress you must put your beliefs to one side. You must also be prepared to accept this inquiry values direct looking and experiencing to a more intellectual approach. A “willing suspension of disbelief” is required while you directly and honestly look for answers. Are you willing to do this?

Mike
"...there's a system that searches for the Truth, and it's a process of challenging everything." - Richard Rose

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shoonya
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Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby shoonya » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:25 am

Hi Mike,
To progress you must put your beliefs to one side. You must also be prepared to accept this inquiry values direct looking and experiencing to a more intellectual approach. A “willing suspension of disbelief” is required while you directly and honestly look for answers. Are you willing to do this?
Yes..but the question is how do I look directly? How to put beliefs to one side?

Thank You,
Shoonya

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Kiwi
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Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby Kiwi » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:35 am

Hi Shoonya

Thank you for your reply, and for your decision to continue with the inquiry. I’ll address both the questions you asked

Your first question is: “how do I look directly?” The word “look” can throw a logical thinking person (it did me) because “looking” in this context has nothing to do with vision. It has more to do with sensing – and because that is a more intuitive skill, it requires that the mind be not engaged. When I previously asked you to look and see if you can discover the location of the “I” in your body”, that is asking you to sense whether you felt anything to indicate that you are your body. Your response was an intellectual one “I am this body, my thoughts and actions I do”

Your second question asks “how can beliefs be put aside?”. Beliefs cannot be put to one side, they have too much of a hold on the “I” to be simply swept aside or ignored. Simply, beliefs develop over time, largely as a result of what others say or do to us. If a particular statement or action relating to myself is made frequently, I will come to accept it as true. Once that happens, the belief will impact upon my behaviour and way of thinking about myself. Beliefs have a very powerful influence upon the “identity of me”.

In your very first post you wrote about a belief that you hold about yourself: that “I am (more) self centred” and “compassion for others does not come to me easily” I would suggest that you wrote these because you believe that they are true. But they are not. After hearing others describe you as self centred and lacking compassion, over time you came to believe that ‘they must be true”. Once you believed them to be truthful descriptors of your self, they were able to shape your behaviour

However, beliefs are not true and they can be seen though, if not put aside.

How do you see through beliefs? First, by recognising that they are perceptions of others that have no meaning to them other than that which you attach to them; and second by coming to realise that there is no “you” in reality to “own” them. Once it is perceived that there is no “I” to accept whatever others might say about “me”, beliefs simply drop away.

No the inquiry question of you!

You have stated (a belief) that “I” am this body”. Where, therefore, in the body (a location) do you sense that your “I-ness” is located?

Mike
"...there's a system that searches for the Truth, and it's a process of challenging everything." - Richard Rose

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shoonya
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Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby shoonya » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Hi Mike,
Actually people I know consider me as more kind and patient. Self-centerdness and lack of compassion within me was realized by myself. On further probing, I consider my pain /story is of the worst kind that could happen to anyone, and thus other's story is nothing for me (Just wanted to clarify this part).

Where is "I" located in the body ? I would say it's in the head (brain). Thats from where the "I" thoughts are emanating. Now, thoughts are not real, therefore "I" is not real. All the sad story from past is due to my attachment as it defined me. Correct? (still not looking directly :) )

How different "I" will be from now, if realization that "I" is not the body happens ?

Thank You,
Shoonya

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Kiwi
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Location: Australia

Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby Kiwi » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:34 am

Hi Shoonya
Thanks for the post. Applause for progress being made!
Where is "I" located in the body ? I would say it's in the head (brain). Thats from where the "I" thoughts are emanating.
OK. Now inquire about this. Would your sense of “I” be diminished is you had a brain injury or diminished brain capacity?
Now, thoughts are not real, therefore "I" is not real.
You’re right, you are not your thoughts. How do you know this? Is this a conclusion of the mind, or a knowingness arising from your direct experience?
All the sad story from past is due to my attachment as it defined me. Correct? (still not looking directly :) )
You’re absolutely correct. The self’s sad story is believed by you. As you created the “sad story” beliefs, you have elevated them to the status of being true. Can’t tell whether your conclusion is a knowing (that is, beyond all beliefs) or an egoic conclusion – tell me more about being attached to an experience
How different "I" will be from now, if realization that "I" is not the body happens ?
Nothing physically will be any different. The body will continue to do what the body has always done. What will be different is that a belief that you created “I am my body” will no longer be believed. The “I” will then perhaps find something else to define itself by – such as “I am my career”, or “I am my mind”. If it does this, we simply recognize the beliefs involved and see through them. The “I” has many illusionary aspects to its identity, all “made real” by beliefs. Eventually, you’ll get to the point where you will realize that there “is no I, no self and no beliefs” Only then will you be able to know what is beyond the illusion.

Cheers

Mike
"...there's a system that searches for the Truth, and it's a process of challenging everything." - Richard Rose

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shoonya
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Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby shoonya » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:42 am

Now inquire about this. Would your sense of “I” be diminished is you had a brain injury or diminished brain capacity?
If my brain is injured and if I can't function normally, then definitely my sense of I will take a beating. It's a shock and I would be depressed.
you are not your thoughts. How do you know this? Is this a conclusion of the mind, or a knowingness arising from your direct experience?
It's sort of conclusion arrived logically with the discussion we had so far. I feel near to the knowing-ness but still not there. Is the "shift" sudden? or gradual ?
Can't tell whether your conclusion is a knowing (that is, beyond all beliefs) or an egoic conclusion – tell me more about being attached to an experience
I was attached to my stories before now I am nearly free of them. I have learned to let go things. I need to let go many things still. I am recognizing holding to those painful stories is of no use.
Eventually, you’ll get to the point where you will realize that there “is no I, no self and no beliefs” Only then will you be able to know what is beyond the illusion
It looks like there is no joy or pain beyond this illusion. Then doesn't life become bland (mechanical)?? nothing to be happy or to be in pain...

Thank you
Shoonya

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Kiwi
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:19 am
Location: Australia

Re: Anyone ready to start?

Postby Kiwi » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:44 am

Hi Shoonya

Thank you for your post. You’ve raised a number of points and in love I have responded. Please give the points I have made some careful consideration
If my brain is injured and if I can't function normally, then definitely my sense of I will take a beating. It's a shock and I would be depressed.
It could only be a shock to the “I” if the “I” was the brain, as you have indicated. But you are not your brain. Consider this. The brain is an organ of the body that carries out its work at the behest of other body organs. It is the computer, not the computer operator. Over a period of 40-50 years, every cell in the brain has been replaced (through the normal processes of renewal) a number of times. If you are your brain, then your sense of who you are must have absolutely changed an equal number of times. But you can look today at a toy you played with as a child and still recognise it. You can even look at a childhood photograph of yourself and recognise yourself as a young person. How could that be – if you were your brain it would not be possible to do that as the brain you have now is definitely NOT the brain you had as a child. You are NOT your brain. If you still feel that you are, then your egoic mind has created an illusionary belief to that effect

Think of what animates the brain – it has no battery pack attached, so what animates it? No power supply in the body either, yet it is full of pumps, filters and the like – what animates everything and keeps the whole thing synchronised and running for over 80 years? Instead of persisting with the “I am my brain” illusion, inquire of your self what is it that animates the brain and body. That whatever-it-is has done so for at least the whole of your bodily existence, has never changed during that time and would seem to satisfy the “always constant, never changing” criteria for real-ness
It's sort of conclusion arrived logically with the discussion we had so far. I feel near to the knowing-ness but still not there. Is the "shift" sudden? or gradual ?
The words “arrived logically” identify a conclusion of the egoic mind. Keep looking! The moment of realisation has often been described as the “eternal second” – but is often preceded by a more gradual “build up” of understanding
I was attached to my stories before now I am nearly free of them. I have learned to let go things. I need to let go many things still. I am recognizing holding to those painful stories is of no use.
You will only be free of them once there is no “I” to own them. Thinking that you can have no suffering while the “I” is present is delusional. The “I must honestly be faced and seen through. The egoic mind might be telling you that you’re “nearly free” but it is doing so to keep you occupied in seeking - thereby keeping you from finding the truth.
It looks like there is no joy or pain beyond this illusion. Then doesn't life become bland (mechanical)??
Joy, happiness and pain are imagined states of mind, popularised into goals by New Age teachings. There is no pain, there is no joy, there is no happiness – these are all simply dualistic labels put on things by your mind. Same with blandness (it exists only in your mind). If your expectation is that realisation will usher in feelings of peace, joy and happiness, then you will surely be disappointed as these states are dualistic by their very nature. You cannot have any dualistic state of mind without its opposite being close at hand – so close by joy is depression, happiness is followed by unhappiness. Buddha didn’t say that enlightenment is the achievement of joy, pain or happiness – he said that it was the “end of suffering”.
nothing to be happy or to be in pain...
If those are truly beliefs that you have of what a life without suffering would be like, then surely you must ask yourself whether it’s a goal you truly want to achieve in this lifetime?

Mike
"...there's a system that searches for the Truth, and it's a process of challenging everything." - Richard Rose


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