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[Unelightened]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no real self. The self is an illusion. I believe that the sense of self is just though-generated. (I could well be wrong though)

What are you looking for at LU?
I have seen many videos & have read many books/articles that have said that the self is an illusion. I have tried meditation & self-inquiry before but I haven't got 'it' yet. I would like to understand reality more clearly.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm unsure. I've tried to do self-inquiry by myself and I didn't make much progress. I've come to Liberation Unleashed to hopefully get a helping hand in seeing through the illusion. I am not confident in my 'self-inquiry abilities'. :D

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have some experience with meditation & self-inquiry. I would say I am a beginner.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Unelightened]

With the benefit of hindsight I really should have chosen a title... Oh dear.

;)

[Andrei]

Hi there,

welcome to LU. I would be happy to help you with your inquiry.

With the benefit of hindsight I really should have chosen a title... Oh dear.

Yes you should have :D

Or, on a more serious note, as that is a place to start as good as any other, how did you make that simple choice?
Was there a "self" involved or did it simply happen?

Also, the sense of self is thought-generated you say and that is accurate, but what other things do you identify with? what else is there that feels personal?


cheers!


Andrei

[Unelightened]

Hi Andrei. Thanks for the reply!

how did you make that simple choice? Was there a "self" involved or did it simply happen?

Well now, let me think.... I know that free will is an illusion so I'm pretty sure it simply happened that I forgot to chose a title. There definitely was a feeling of agency when I was answering the questions that LU asked before creating this account. It felt as though I could have answered questions differently. I could have just pressed 'X' & gone and watched a Netflix show, or walked my dog.

Also, the sense of self is thought-generated you say and that is accurate, but what other things do you identify with? what else is there that feels personal?

I seem to identify with everything inside my body & my body included. I feel like I am located behind my eyes. In one sense I know that it is absurd to identify with the body because the body is not a static thing. It's a process that is constantly changing. I don't get upset when I cut my fingernails/hair and throw them in the bin. I don't feel like I'm throwing a part of me in the bin.
However, If someone was to come up to me and say, 'you're ugly please get away from me'. I would be offended. :D It's a feeling that I am the owner of this body.

I identify a great deal with my personality. (I have a tendency to be more of an introvert) I would say that I also identify with the country/culture I live in, my name & my life story. My memories feel like they belong to me.


Thanks :)

[Andrei]

Thank you for the explanation. That was needed in order to know what we have to work on.

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

Also, here we use a technique called Direct Experience aka Direct Pointing.
DE is the original input one gets through SENSATIONS and SENSES, that tension you feel in your arm before labelling it as good (a tickle) or bad (a burn), the noise you hear before you interpret it as coming from a vehicle or elsewhere. DE is what is, prior to any sort of interpretations done by the mind.

Using DE, can you find an "I" anywhere?

[Unelightened]

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

Mixed feelings. On one hand I feel like maintaining my 'self' is mentally draining. I imagine it would be a relief to let it go. However, there is a some fear/trepidation that arises because I have no idea what life looks like without a me there in the driving seat. (If that makes any sense at all)

Using DE, can you find an "I" anywhere?

There are colours, shapes, sounds. The belly is rising and falling. There is a slight pulse in the left wrist. Thoughts are arising. Something along the lines of, 'Hey, dummy! look that's your foot resting on the table, of course you're a self!'

I can't find an 'I'. I seem to be made of many parts which come together to make 'me'.

[Andrei]

there is a some fear/trepidation that arises because I have no idea what life looks like without a me there in the driving seat.

That is quite important. Can you stay with that fear for a while, let it permeate your being and see whether there is such a thing as "fear" or if its just a label for a bunch of sensations and whether those sensations can harm you in any way?
And you can do the same anytime fear/worries take hold of you.

I can't find an 'I'. I seem to be made of many parts which come together to make 'me'.

Good.
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience? Is there a watcher separate from the seen?

[Unelightened]

Can you stay with that fear for a while, let it permeate your being and see whether there is such a thing as "fear" or if its just a label for a bunch of sensations and whether those sensations can harm you in any way?

There is no such thing as fear. Fear does not exist as an entity. It is a label one uses when certain uncomfortable sensations arise. (Tight chest, sweaty palms, racing thoughts etc)
Having said that one might experience those listed sensations on say a roller coaster ride & interperate/label the sensations as excitement rather than fear. If that same person felt those sensations before giving a speech he/she may interperate them as 'fear' instead of excitement say.
Fear sensations can't hurt me but when I'm in the midst of stress/anxiety it sure feels like they own me.

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience? Is there a watcher separate from the seen?

I can't seem to find an 'I' that is separate from experience. There seems to be a lot of resistance here. The mind is getting in the way! I'll practice the direct pointing exercises a bit more. I think I'm waiting for some sort of 'ah-hah' moment. Maybe I've seen it but the mind won't believe it? I'm not sure 🤔

[Andrei]

If that same person felt those sensations before giving a speech he/she may interperate them as 'fear' instead of excitement say.

Same sensations with a different label or story attached to them.

Fear sensations can't hurt me but when I'm in the midst of stress/anxiety it sure feels like they own me.

Because the stories are still very much the norm. You need to create new habits, by looking instead of thinking or believing. It takes time for old beliefs to get rewired but it's worth it.

There seems to be a lot of resistance here. The mind is getting in the way! I'll practice the direct pointing exercises a bit more. I think I'm waiting for some sort of 'ah-hah' moment.

The mind does what it does, what it was programmed to do. If it gets in the way be gentile with it. If you're stressed or tired take a break, come back to it later.
Take as much time as you need. Let it sink in. Soon the castle of cards will collapse.
when you find a roadblock just apply DE. Take whatever blocks you and break it in little pieces and look at each and every one of them. And so on until there is nothing left.
That's how you dispell the confusion, by looking at whatever you're resisting to.
And of course, I'm here to help if something is not working.

[Unelightened]

Thanks for the advice, Andrei.
I had an insight last night. I have been feeling quite depressed recently & ive always said things along the lines of, "I'm depressed", "I'm feeling sad" etc.
Last night I came to the conclusion that 'I' am not depressed. Depression & sadness are emotions that are arising. I don't have to claim ownership of them. Neither do I have to claim any thoughts or emotions that arise in conscious. I am not in control of them.

Am I on the right track here?
Many thanks

[Andrei]

I know this might sound like picking on words, but emotion sounds a bit vague and it can leave room for story making. My advise is go directly for the sensation, that original input before any labelling. It's much harder for anything to hide in there. Sensations just are.

So you're feeling a bit depressed. It's great that you see it as just happening independent of an "owner". That's a battle half won.
Try to use this as an opportunity to look into the sensations tied to the label "depression". Of course if it gets too intense take a break. Don't force anything :)

Am I on the right track here?

You're doing great!

Let's talk about thoughts. Are they "yours" or do they just happen as well?

And you can look into sensations as well. Does anything happen as a result of your intention/will?

[Unelightened]

Try to use this as an opportunity to look into the sensations tied to the label "depression"

Finding it difficult to pinpoint the exact sensations. Maybe sort of a heaviness/lethargic feel.

Let's talk about thoughts. Are they "yours" or do they just happen as well?

When I look closely I can see that thoughts just arise. There still is a feeling that I'm responsible for them.
When I'm not mindful I feel as though "I" am thinking the thoughts. When I meditate I can see clearly that thoughts just come & go. I'm merely the witness of the thoughts. For example: a thought arose in the image of a pink goldfish while I'm typing this. Haha

And you can look into sensations as well. Does anything happen as a result of your intention/will?

Well the body seems to be working without my intention/will. I can't give an order to my body to stop working at will.
I sometimes catch myself in autopilot mode. I'll be walking to the fridge & there will be some thoughts that I'm engrossed in and then suddenly I'll pop back in reality & ive made a drink without being fully there.

There still is the feeling that I'm in control though. E.g: I am raising my right arm up now. I feel like I did that. Or was that just another thought & im taking ownership of it. Hmmmm

:)

[Andrei]

When I look closely I can see that thoughts just arise. There still is a feeling that I'm responsible for them.
When I'm not mindful I feel as though "I" am thinking the thoughts. When I meditate I can see clearly that thoughts just come & go. I'm merely the witness of the thoughts. For example: a thought arose in the image of a pink goldfish while I'm typing this.

Hmm, the pink fish might be a sign :))

Let's play with thoughts for a bit. Can you pick and choose a thought right now? If you're in control of thoughts or at least have some responsibility in that regard, you should have something to say in the matter.
Do you?

Well the body seems to be working without my intention/will. I can't give an order to my body to stop working at will.

About the body, is there such a thing as a body or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

There still is the feeling that I'm in control though. E.g: I am raising my right arm up now. I feel like I did that. Or was that just another thought & im taking ownership of it.

I have the perfect pointer for that.
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

[Unelightened]

Can you pick and choose a thought right now?

There is a feeling that I can choose a thought. But thoughts just come and go. Even the example I used when I said that I could raise my right arm with my own free will.
I took ownership of the action but I suppose it just happened by itself.

About the body, is there such a thing as a body or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

I suppose the body is just a label. It's not a solid/stable entity. It feels like sensations/thoughts/emotions arise in it. It still feels like I'm trapped in it. 🤔

Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

Ok, doing the pen experiment now...

After much deliberation 'i' chose the black pen. It felt like I had a choice, but that was just a feeling. In hindsight I had no choice. I could have only picked the black pen at that time. So choice is an illusion?

[Andrei]

There is a feeling that I can choose a thought. But thoughts just come and go. Even the example I used when I said that I could raise my right arm with my own free will.
I took ownership of the action but I suppose it just happened by itself.

Certain?

It feels like sensations/thoughts/emotions arise in it. It still feels like I'm trapped in it.

That feeling of being trapped is anything more than a sensation or bunch of sensations? Again with the question: what makes them yours?
See, whenever you meet a roadblock you need to look into it, because the "what if" `s and "maybe" `s won't provide you with an answer. You just need to look instead.

So choice is an illusion?

Very good question! What would the answer be? :D