Liberation Unleashed

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Fernando79
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Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:18 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no real person doing with free will, only an illusion of a person who thinks is independent doing what it's doing. There is no self, only life doing what is doing interdependently, which includes this bodymind.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for clarity and verification or deepening of this understanding through a dialogue with someone who's been there done that. I don't have a guru and don't think I'll find one soon, so I thought this could be as close as I can get.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect and ongoing dialogue that facilitates this process of understanding or realization. An exploration into experience and questioning of beliefs and reality as it is. I expect it to be a fun exploration.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have meditated, contemplated and done qigong for about 7 years, with no particular regularity or discipline. I've read dozens of books on spirituality and consider Taoism and the Tao Te Ching my favorite. I have been into tarot, iChing and other forms of divination and find them fascinating topics for insight and discovery.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:18 pm

Hi Ferdinando 79,

I've read your preamble and would love to work with you.

Do read, if you haven't already, all the guidelines and disclaimers on the gate and check out the 'quote' method. Let me know if you have any problems.

I will ask questions and ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can. From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.

Please let me know if this is all ok with you.

Regards,

Michael

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:28 pm

Hi Ferdinando79,

Did you see the last post? Is everything Ok? Are you still interested in being guided?

Regards,

Kevin

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Fernando79
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:17 am

Hi Michael,

Yes, I'm interested. Sorry for the delay. It's been a while since I use a forum and was a bit lost with the site.

I'm ready when you are.

Thank you!

Fernando

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:14 pm

Hi Fernando,

Deep apologies. You had replied but I hadn't seen that. So sorry for the delay and sending you the email.

Lets begin.

First of all can you have a good search and write down please any expectations you may have, this is an important first step and allows us to clear the ground.

I know this is the pot calling the kettle black (!) but can we try and post daily if possible and notify each other if we know we are going to miss several consecutive days. Momentum tends to help. Many thanks.

Warmly,

Michael

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Fernando79
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:39 am

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your reply and for your time. I will be writing daily.

My expectations are of freedom, as in freedom from identifying with the limiting view of the personal self or ego. I've done work in this regard and have reached a good grasp of when the ego is at play. I sometimes wonder if my ego is hiding and faking to be free from itself, although I seem to catch this happening sometimes.

To sum up: I'd like to get clarity on my experienced freedom and get a higher perspective on any possibility of the ego tricking me into a false sense of freedom.

Best,

Fernando

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:16 pm

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for replying swiftly. On a practical note please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the 'Quote' function as it makes dialogue so much easier.
My expectations are of freedom, as in freedom from identifying with the limiting view of the personal self or ego.
This is a realistic expectation, but it is unusual to have only one expectation so you may want to fish around a little more in case there are any others. See also if any fears or obstacles come to mind.

Key to the process is being able to tune into and report directly from your experience. So for your first exercise please take a few moments to sit quietly and simply write down what you experience free of interpretation or analysis. So for example you may notice pressure on your legs, the sounds of cars, the smell of incense or food etc.

Warm regards,

Michael.

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Fernando79
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:37 am

Key to the process is being able to tune into and report directly from your experience. So for your first exercise please take a few moments to sit quietly and simply write down what you experience free of interpretation or analysis. So for example you may notice pressure on your legs, the sounds of cars, the smell of incense or food etc.
I sat and closed my eyes first. I heard a sea of sounds that move in multiple directions across what feels like a vast open space. I sensed the heaviness of the pressure of what I know to be my body against a chair. I felt the torso and neck but wasn't aware of much else physically. I experience thoughts directing me through the exercise of simply noticing without interpreting. I then opened my eyes and saw an image of my living room and my wife standing and moving around. I noticed the sounds continued to move about, while my attention seemed to want to follow the moving sounds coming from cars and people outside the room that can't be seen from where I sat.

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:25 pm

Hi Fernanado,

Thanks for that.

I can see from your description of just sitting that you are able to differentiate between the various elements of your experience - raw data from the senses, and thoughts passing through the mind. This skill is fundamental to successful inquiry so it means that you are in good place to begin your explorations. Great!

As you believe there is an ego entity, or separate self, you are now going to search for it and either find it (which you won't be able to, because it doesn't exist!) or learn directly from your own experience that it is not there.

So, in your post you state;
I sat and closed my eyes
Who, or what, sat and closed it's eyes?

You also go on to say;
I sensed the heaviness of the pressure of what I know to be my body against a chair.
What and where is this 'I' that is sensing the heaviness of pressure?

And since I intuit that you are up for a good look just what do you mean by "my body against a chair" ?

Who's body? Is it yours?

So specifically what I would like you to do is sit again and look directly into your experience for the answers to these questions. Repeat at different times so you are really exploring thoroughly. (And just while I think of it, any exercise or task you try is usually worth coming back to and repeating as we move further on).

Enjoy your investigations. Look with the heart.

Michael

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Fernando79
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:44 am

Who, or what, sat and closed it's eyes?
What I consider my body sat and closed its eyes.
What and where is this 'I' that is sensing the heaviness of pressure?

And since I intuit that you are up for a good look just what do you mean by "my body against a chair" ?

Who's body? Is it yours?
I sat quietly - actually, the body sat - to do the exercise twice today. I realized during the exercise the second time that the body does what it does without any thinking involved. Sometimes there is a vague thought that comes in that precedes an action, but most of the movements are done without thinking involved. The I that senses the pressure and heaviness is not localized, it's a sense of being that doesn't seem to have any limits, yet it feels it has control over the body. The thoughts seem localized in the center of the head, in between the ears and behind the eyes.

The I that senses/sees seems to be independent of the body and thoughts. It appears that the thoughts are connected to the body, but the I is not. The I is simply noticing. I wonder why the "I" senses the body but does not sense other objects outside the body that are not in direct contact with it. The I senses sounds, images, and physical sensations coming from the body and directly touching the body, but not objects in view that do not touch the body. The I seems independent of the body, yet seems to emanate from the body due to these sensations. I is the presence observing, listening and sensing and seems to be running the body and from there outward without a perceived limit.

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:05 pm

Hi Fernando,

Thank you for your post.
I realized during the exercise the second time that the body does what it does without any thinking involved.
A good observation. Well done.

You then go on to describe thoughts but we will look at them further down the track.
I wonder why the "I" senses the body but does not sense other objects outside the body that are not in direct contact with it. The I senses sounds, images, and physical sensations coming from the body and directly touching the body, but not objects in view that do not touch the body.
I still don't understand what this "I" is that you are referring to exactly. Perhaps the following exercise will help clarify things for you. If you contemplate an object there should be a point where the object ends and you, the self, begins. Try and locate that line or boundary demarcating the self.

Take an object like a cup or a piece of fruit and look at it.

Where does it end and you begin?

Is there a perceiver?

Is there a self carrying out an act of perception?

Take your time with this. You need to be thorough rather than rush.

Warm regards,

Michael

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Fernando79
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:43 am

I still don't understand what this "I" is that you are referring to exactly. Perhaps the following exercise will help clarify things for you. If you contemplate an object there should be a point where the object ends and you, the self, begins. Try and locate that line or boundary demarcating the self.
The "I" is what I could call the aliveness or being. I don't know what else to call it. The perceiver or presence, being or consciousness is what comes to mind to describe what I call the "I".
I don't find a line of separation between and object and this being or consciousness. I only sense that I can feel the body, but can't feel an object that's away from the body. Perhaps that's the separation you refer to - it's physicals separation or of sensation, but not separation in awareness.
Is there a self carrying out an act of perception?
Not sure if I can call it a self carrying out anything, but there is an aliveness that perceives. It sees, hears and feels through the body.

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:01 pm

Hi Fernando,

A couple of things. Firstly guidance takes the form of pointers. It is not a question of just doing an exercise once or twice and then reporting back as soon as possible. On my last post I suggested you take your time but you chose to return post within a few hours. It is more like a 'direction' is given and then you work with that, so looking whenever you have a chance; for instance in quite periods at work, while commuting, cleaning your teeth etc, etc.
The "I" is what I could call the aliveness or being.
Not sure if I can call it a self carrying out anything, but there is an aliveness that perceives. It sees, hears and feels through the body.


So are you saying there is a separate self or not? Please be definite.

Regard,

Michael

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Fernando79
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby Fernando79 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:01 pm

Firstly guidance takes the form of pointers. It is not a question of just doing an exercise once or twice and then reporting back as soon as possible. On my last post I suggested you take your time but you chose to return post within a few hours.
Thanks for clarifying, Michael. I was going by your earlier instruction to write everyday. By "take your time" I thought you meant taking my time with the exercise, not several hours/days of looking in a direction before responding.
So are you saying there is a separate self or not? Please be definite.
I'll take my time with this and report back.

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MichaelD
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Re: Liberation Unleashed

Postby MichaelD » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:42 pm

Hi Fernando,

Yes, it is a balance between momentum and taking enough time to really be able to see what is going on with clarity. Ultimately the pace is set by the client as the changes / seeing are going on in him or her.

Hope that makes sense. Enjoy the looking. For myself the process itself was very enjoyable as it became ever more fascinating. By the end it was pretty much all consuming(I would wake in the night thinking and looking ans it would kick in as soon as I awoke - a bit like the classical description of someone working with a koan). However it varies a great deal between people as we are all so different.

Hope this helps in some way.

I look forward to the results of your current inquiry :)

Michael.


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