self for sale, one careful previous owner?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:37 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
As I understand it, we are all pure awareness one and the same, part of a whole, all connected. There is no separation and no individual self, the ego is an illusion, a story. I feel deeply that this must be true, yet it feels more like an intellectual realisation, not a direct experience. It seems to be right in front of my face, but out of focus.

What are you looking for at LU?
Most simply, the truth. Whatever that may turn out out to be, or not to be. A foot on the path to the truth would also be just fine.
I was brought up a scientist and a skeptic in my career, never particularly religious or spiritual, nor felt the need to be. When I accidentally stumbled upon the Dzogchen Buddhist teachings and read about the natural state/primordial awareness/true nature (call it what you like) I immediately recognised it must be true, it was just a feeling of connection with the revelation even though it should have been shocking to me. But in my search since then it does feel like the majority of spiritual teachers, frameworks, schools, practices and traditions are weighed down with ritual and indirect answers, things which ultimately stand between here and the truth. Or maybe it's just the seeking that is unsatisfactory. Anyway, what I'm really looking for is a direct, straight-talking dialogue to point me directly to the true nature of reality. I would never place the unreasonable expectation on anyone to have all the answers, but just someone to bounce ideas off, who may know thing or two more than me would make all the difference right now.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping that through discussing the issue of the existence of self with someone who has already been through the process, I might hopefully reach a direct experience of the truth myself. In the end even if it doesn't lead to that realisation, then I freely accept and would be happy that at least this conversation might lead me to figuring out the next question to ask.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Well I don't come from a spiritual background, and was brought up in white, vaguely Christian western society. I started out with basic breath meditation primarily just to reduce stress. What surprised me was a sudden experience out in public one day, when all thoughts stopped and I felt the most overwhelming sense of calm I've ever known, and time seemed to slow down to a crawl. It wasn't permanent but I came away convinced to look deeper. I've also been practicing Transcendental Meditation for a while since then, in trying to find something more profound.

More recently I have studied quite a range of Dzogchen Buddhist teachings, with other supporting Buddhist background material, mainly because I sensed an element of truth within the Dzogchen teachings on the true nature of awareness, and because I felt the Buddhist philosophy of how to treat others was beautiful and compassionate. Even just reading the teachings I felt a subtle shift in perspective on reading the view of reality described. So to learn how to practice, I joined a Dzogchen group and have been recently practicing Dzogchen meditation. I just received "Direct Transmission" from the master of that group, but to be honest I'm not sure yet whether that gave me any direct experience of the natural state as promised, or perhaps it was just more subtle than I was expecting...I dunno I just don't feel it yet. I've also tried self-inquiry in meditation but don't seem to be able to pierce to the heart of the matter that way either. It's like I understand this, I get it, its so close but I just can't touch it directly myself.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:29 pm

Hello Gondwana!

Or should I call you by a different name?
My name is Matthew and I'm happy to be your guide.

Your background in Dzogchen sounds very intersting. Even though Dzogchen is the most immediate material I know of, I must ask you to set aside ALL inquiry and seeking outside of this conversation for now.
No books, no teachers, no videos and so on. All this had only the reason to bring you up to a point where you can look for yourself, what's true and what is not true. Holding onto concepts ABOUT the truth -as profound as they even are- is the very hindrance for seing through the illusion yourself.
Can you do that?


Looking forward to your reply!

Kind regards,
Matthew
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:27 am

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for writing back, you can call me Tim.

Absolutely, I can do that. Consider it all set aside. I'm ready to look.

Tim


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:19 am

Great!

I just received "Direct Transmission" from the master of that group, but to be honest I'm not sure yet whether that gave me any direct experience of the natural state
It is very important to be aware of expectations.
Consider the possibility, that what you are apparently seeking is nothing like what can be expected by way of thought.

Could it be, that you expect "it" to be a certain kind of blissful experience?
Something "more" or "better" than what already is?

If you saw this to be true ->that there really is no one there from where the looking happens right now<- how would life change?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:33 am

Could it be, that you expect "it" to be a certain kind of blissful experience? Something "more" or "better" than what already is?
It was a smaller and more nonspecific expectation, I expected to notice something unmistakably different, beyond doubt. I didn't have a specific expectation as to what that might be.
If you saw this to be true ->that there really is no one there from where the looking happens right now<- how would life change?
It would be a profound shift of perspective, defensiveness and selfish concerns would seem less meaningful. The transience of things would be more in focus. Perhaps more connected to everything else.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:05 am

The transience of things would be more in focus.
This could happen or not. Questions about permanence and impermanence may seem profound, but they are still questions from the land of concepts. Philosophy. Don't worry about any focus.

What surprised me was a sudden experience out in public one day, when all thoughts stopped and I felt the most overwhelming sense of calm I've ever known
It wasn't permanent
When reflecting upon it and looking what is here right now, what exactly was/is not permanent?
Did something not stay?
Or did something come back?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:40 am

This could happen or not. Questions about permanence and impermanence may seem profound, but they are still questions from the land of concepts. Philosophy. Don't worry about any focus.
They confuse me anyway! Done.
When reflecting upon it and looking what is here right now, what exactly was/is not permanent?
Did something not stay?
Or did something come back?
Thoughts came back. Unprompted, streaming thoughts that just pop up with an internal narrative about everything that's going on and what might or might not go on.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:58 am

And can you make thoughts vanish completely? Do you have the power to do that?

Not relying on maybe knowledge about meditation.. But if you'd try it right now!

What happens when you try to stop thoughts?
What can be observed in direct experience?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:51 am

And can you make thoughts vanish completely? Do you have the power to do that?

Not relying on maybe knowledge about meditation.. But if you'd try it right now!
Yeah, I can make them stop at will any time I like, without meditating. They just stop; and stay off for maybe a minute or so before coming back.
What can be observed in direct experience?
Just tried it now so I could get you a complete answer. Here's what I observed:

- the world just carries on outside, that doesn't change
- I can see what's going on around me better
- my muscles relax
- it's quieter inside my head, SO quiet
- it's quiet inside to the point of feeling kind of empty..it's just awareness watching, nothing else
- emotionally it feels both calming and lonely
- there's an anxious tugging, that I should be doing "something" right now
- it does still feel like I'm "residing" inside my head looking out, in that sense it still seems like a 'self'
- conceptual labelling is still going on identifying objects in view I think, though it's non-verbal




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:01 pm

Hm..

On the one hand you say
Yeah, I can make them stop at will any time I like, without meditating


and on the other
there's an anxious tugging, that I should be doing "something" right now
it does still feel like I'm "residing" inside my head looking out, in that sense it still seems like a 'self'
conceptual labelling is still going on identifying objects in view I think, though it's non-verbal

What is an "anxious tugging", a "feeling of residing in the head" and "conceptual labeling" in direct experience?

You say, it is non-verbal. But this is still very detailed information.. Where does it come from?
Have a direct LOOK at exactly these expressions.
What it is, that tells a story about or gives a sense of "anxious tugging", a "feeling of residing in the head" and "conceptual labeling"?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:23 pm

Hmm I think maybe I tried to over-analyse it to be thorough and just ended up making my observations confusing.
there's an anxious tugging, that I should be doing "something" right now
I just meant that I'm pushing them all out to stop thoughts, it works for a while but eventually I lose and they come back.
it does still feel like I'm "residing" inside my head looking out, in that sense it still seems like a 'self'
Well when you look around at the world, you're seeing from the perspective of the eyes inside your head. Hence it's hard to escape the feeling of being sat inside the head? That's all I really meant.
conceptual labelling is still going on identifying objects in view I think, though it's non-verbal
I just meant that when I see a car, I know I still recognise it as a car even though the voice in my head isn't saying anything.
Sorry I think I just confused things.
You say, it is non-verbal. But this is still very detailed information.. Where does it come from?
Have a direct LOOK at exactly these expressions.
What it is, that tells a story about or gives a sense of "anxious tugging", a "feeling of residing in the head" and "conceptual labeling"?
I can't really see where it comes from, I'm not clear...it's my analytical mind??

So are you saying the self is not just the voice in my head, there are also silent parts to it analysing things quietly as well?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:06 pm

I can't really see where it comes from, I'm not clear...it's my analytical mind??
So are you saying the self is not just the voice in my head, there are also silent parts to it analysing things quietly as well?
Have you heard about the thief-metaphore?
If "I" try to catch other thoughts, then it is like a thief and a policeman being the same person.
How could he ever catch himself?

There is no way to see what is beeing pointed to by way of thinking about it. So let us instead have a LOOK!

I just meant that when I see a car, I know I still recognise it as a car even though the voice in my head isn't saying anything.
That's interesting, isn't it! How does this recognition work?
Does a thought have to be articulated in clear language?

Try the following:
Close your eyes for about a minute and acknowledge that right now you can only SEE a brownish colour.
Do not mind thought which tells that you are sitting here and that there may be other things in front of you.

Then open your eyes.
What do you SEE? Is there anything other than colour?

Does colour by itself tell that "this is a computer", "this is a table", "this is a car" and so on?
Do these kind of information reside in colour? Does colour by itself provide anything else than colour?

In this brief moment of opening the eyes.. Can you observe thought kicking in almost(!) instantly and labeling things?



Try this several times!
And report back what you have found answering the blue questions.
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:59 am

Have you heard about the thief-metaphore?
If "I" try to catch other thoughts, then it is like a thief and a policeman being the same person.
How could he ever catch himself?
Haha, that's a great metaphor! I see what you mean!
That's interesting, isn't it! How does this recognition work? Does a thought have to be articulated in clear language?
I thought a thought had to be a "voice" saying something, but you're saying it can be non-language as well. That was a fundamental misunderstanding I had.
What do you SEE? Is there anything other than colour?

Does colour by itself tell that "this is a computer", "this is a table", "this is a car" and so on?
Do these kind of information reside in colour? Does colour by itself provide anything else than colour?

In this brief moment of opening the eyes.. Can you observe thought kicking in almost(!) instantly and labeling things?
I found this was difficult. I tried lots of times, it happens so fast it's hard to catch.

When I do it in the same room: can't really spot anything happening, maybe I already know what's going to be there when I open my eyes?

When I close my eyes, move to a different room, then open: feels like there's maybe 0.5 second when I'm actually "blind", after opening my eyes - I just see nothing, until the labelling kicks in and the scene suddenly appears. Weird. Is this what you mean?

In general after opening the eyes, my attention rapidly darts about identifying and labelling objects, it's involuntary.

Logically, I'd say colour by itself tells you nothing other than colour. Although it's fair to say I don't feel I was fast enough to see just a colour before it got interpreted into an object; maybe I caught lots of colours and shapes jumbled up, at best. I think I'm struggling with what I actually see before they are interpreted, it's not very clear.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
Matthew
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 2:58 pm
Location: Your dreams

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby Matthew » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:20 am

Ok, then let us forget about the terms "before" and "after".
my attention rapidly darts about identifying and labelling objects
You already see the labeling happening.
In every day life, the labeling apparently happens alongside seing, hearing, tasting, smelling and sensing. But if we look closely..
Are the labels (thoughts) indivisible from colour, sound and so on?
Or are they superimposed?

Superimposed by what?
For the "one" or the "thing", that is doing the labeling you used the terms "analytical mind" and "attention".
Can you find an "analytical mind" or "attention" in direct experience?
Does it have colour, form or shape?
How is it known, that there is something unkwown, that does the labeling?
Isn't it again thought that is telling such a story?

Forget about what you've learned and conclusions that you can make by way of conceptualising about it.
Trust in what you see in your direct experience.

Do not try to understand what was written above, but use it as a means to look at thought.
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: self for sale, one careful previous owner?

Postby gondwana » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:05 pm

Are the labels (thoughts) indivisible from colour, sound and so on?
Or are they superimposed?
Superimposed by what?
Superimposed! By the mind.
For the "one" or the "thing", that is doing the labeling you used the terms "analytical mind" and "attention".
Can you find an "analytical mind" or "attention" in direct experience?
No not at all.
The only things in direct experience are my five senses and thoughts.
Does it have colour, form or shape?
No
How is it known, that there is something unkwown, that does the labeling?
Isn't it again thought that is telling such a story?
Yes I'd have admit it is a thought.
Forget about what you've learned and conclusions that you can make by way of conceptualising about it.
Trust in what you see in your direct experience.

Do not try to understand what was written above, but use it as a means to look at thought.
It seems that thought is inescapable and when I try to look at direct experience or thoughts, I just end up creating more thoughts? So I can't stop thoughts after all, it's still going on all the time.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests