Help needed please

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:24 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The 'me' that I think I am is a fiction. Guides at LU have seen this for themselves and are able to point the way for others to see it too.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help to see that the self I think I am isn't real. An end to seeking and a more relaxed way of being. I live like a hermit with a large fear-aggressive dog and maybe if I can see that the character I think I am isn't real I'll take life less seriously and it may relax the dog more; even if it doesn't I won't be as bothered by her outbursts (probably sounds weird but I'm being honest).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can point to what I'm missing / misunderstanding; I've been reading the LU Enlightening quotes app for a few months and although I think I understand (which is probably the problem - too much thinking) I still don't see it. Someone who is experienced may be able to identify where I need to look.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I came across the teachings of 'no self' through Alan Watts, Adyashanti and Rupert Spira about three years ago, prior to that I had no spiritual knowledge or practice apart from a vague affinity with Buddhism. I now see that I have been seeking happiness my whole life but through relationships and substances/ altered states, which obviously hasn't worked. I'm now 51 and am fed up of relentlessly seeking. I have tried meditating but am impatient and find it hard to sit still; the voice in my head never shuts up.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:33 pm

Hello Losingnina,

My name is Wesley I am a guide here at LU. Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :). I can be your guide.

I enjoyed reading your post and thank you for sharing. Funny thing, I just stepped in a dog fight between my dogs the other day - woops! I can understand your concern of your dog.

You said you still don't see it - that's perfect. Please put aside all videos, books, and teachings as we will be looking at your direct experience and none of those will help. I will ask you questions and all you do is look at your experience for the answers (or lack of ;) ), and avoid answering from thoughts. Thoughts are welcome and there is no right or wrong answer here, whatever you find is great. Please try to post daily and let me know if you're unable to, this will help keep up momentum.

You mentioned you have tried meditation but find it hard to sit still. I don't think this is a problem at all. Do you have any other meditation practices?

Here's how to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Okay if this sounds good to you so far, let's start.

-What do you expect the moment of seeing through the illusion of a separate self to be like?
-What do you imagine will change?
-What do you imagine will stay the same?
-Do you have any fear surrounding this?

Anything else you would like to share?

Looking forward to our chat ;)

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:03 pm

Hello Wesley,
Thank you very much for offering to be my guide :-) I wasn't going to mention the dog but I'm really glad I did now. I'll put aside all other stuff and will be able to keep in touch daily. I don't have any other meditation practices but I spend a lot of time outdoors - growing veg and walking the dog.
-What do you expect the moment of seeing through the illusion of a separate self to be like?
I don't know really, like a 'aah it's THAT', maybe? As in something sort of obvious that I'm overlooking at the moment.
-What do you imagine will change?
The way life is experienced, I'm hoping that I can see life as beautiful and wondrous again - I've been getting despondent about life and it feels like I'm wasting it by being miserable.
-What do you imagine will stay the same?
My life situation, I don't expect anything physical to change, just the way I see/experience it.
-Do you have any fear surrounding this?
I don't think I do, but it could just be hiding.
Thanks again,
Nina x

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi Losingnina,

Would you like me to call you Nina?

My pleasure :). Great, going outdoors sounds lovely.

Thanks for these answers. Your expectations sound reasonable to me. We're looking for the real me that thoughts keep talking about, not thoughts of me. In this process, you will be relying on your direct experience, being your 5 senses. I guess there are actually more than just those, either way a self won't be found in any of them.

Let's start with sight. You may notice right now a subtle sense of being the looker/the watcher. Look around you, is there a looker that can be found? Or is there just looking happening? Do you know where your eyes will go to next? Close your eyes. What do you see? Do you see an "I"?

Thoughts will often give you a different answer or story than your direct experience. Notice what thoughts say is happening and notice what is really happening, write what you find.

Looking forward to your answers :)

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:47 am

Hi Wesley,
Yes Nina is fine thanks.
Look around you, is there a looker that can be found? Or is there just looking happening?
No I can't find a looker, looking is just happening.
Do you know where your eyes will go to next? Close your eyes. What do you see? Do you see an "I"?
No my eyes are just roaming around, the mind chips in with stories about the different things that come into sight. When I close my eyes I see nothing - no 'I' there.
Notice what thoughts say is happening and notice what is really happening, write what you find.
Thoughts say 'it's raining and windy outside, hmm Thursday morning I need to finish some work today, what's the time blah blah blah....' What's really happening - sound of ticking, body breathing, dog snoring, sight of trees dancing, computer screen, feeling of warmth where face rests on cheek, fingers typing, pain where elbows rest on table. Thinking cuts back in 'now what do I say', relax back into experiencing and see pencil on table and mind cuts in with a description of it being old and chipped. Everything my eyes land on gets a little mind story told about it, and the same with sounds - a whooshing sound is followed by 'there goes another lorry' thought. The mind is pestering to do some work now but I will keep looking at this throughout the day,
Best wishes
Nina

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:14 am

Hi Nina,
No my eyes are just roaming around, the mind chips in with stories about the different things that come into sight. When I close my eyes I see nothing - no 'I' there.
You're good at this!
Thoughts say 'it's raining and windy outside, hmm Thursday morning I need to finish some work today, what's the time blah blah blah....' What's really happening - sound of ticking, body breathing, dog snoring, sight of trees dancing, computer screen, feeling of warmth where face rests on cheek, fingers typing, pain where elbows rest on table. Thinking cuts back in 'now what do I say', relax back into experiencing and see pencil on table and mind cuts in with a description of it being old and chipped. Everything my eyes land on gets a little mind story told about it, and the same with sounds - a whooshing sound is followed by 'there goes another lorry' thought. The mind is pestering to do some work now but I will keep looking at this throughout the day,
You made some great observations here.

Let's try an exercise. Please find a cup and place it in front of you. In regards to this cup, what can you see? What can't you see? What's the raw sensory information of "what's there" and what is being added by thoughts?

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:09 pm

Hi Wesley,
I'm visiting my parents and I have noticed a difference when I look at things as they don't have as many stories attached as it's not 'my' stuff.
Ok now for the exercise :)
Please find a cup and place it in front of you. In regards to this cup, what can you see? What can't you see? What's the raw sensory information of "what's there" and what is being added by thoughts?
I see a shiny beige coloured vessel with red crosses around the rim, shadow inside and bits of light reflected around the rim. The shadow is darker further down inside the mug and it casts a shadow. Thoughts aren't adding anything apart from the description as this isn't 'my' mug and so there isn't a narrative about how / where/ from who I got it. Can't see or think of anything else.
Nina

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:50 pm

Hi Nina,
I'm visiting my parents and I have noticed a difference when I look at things as they don't have as many stories attached as it's not 'my' stuff.
Ok now for the exercise :)
Lovely :).

Great description of this exercise. Look again - how do you know there's a backside of this cup. If you're looking at it from the side, how do you know whether the cup is empty or whether it has some liquid?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:08 pm

Hi Wesley,
I hope you're having a good weekend and thanks for taking the time to talk to me.
Look again - how do you know there's a backside of this cup. If you're looking at it from the side, how do you know whether the cup is empty or whether it has some liquid?
I don't know it has a back side, it's just an assumption or memory thought 'it's a cylinder', from observation I don't actually see this. Without the thought 'I've just finished the tea so it's empty' or looking inside the mug I don't really know if it's empty or not.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend :-)
Hugs
Nina

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:22 am

Hi Nina,

Thank you, I hope you're weekend is good too.
I don't know it has a back side, it's just an assumption or memory thought 'it's a cylinder', from observation I don't actually see this. Without the thought 'I've just finished the tea so it's empty' or looking inside the mug I don't really know if it's empty or not.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend :-)
Great. So is it clear that is only what is seen, and what is thought of/assumed is there?

Now do the same with "I". What is the raw sensory information of it, what can be seen? What is interpretation/added by thoughts?

Looking forward to your findings,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:07 pm

Hi Wesley,
Good thanks,
Now do the same with "I". What is the raw sensory information of it, what can be seen? What is interpretation/added by thoughts?
It's empty, when I look I realise that all sensations are of the body, not a self. Thoughts talk as though they are the self, it's like a commentary or sometimes a conversation with thoughts answering themselves or seeming to. It's thoughts that label experience as 'I' doing this or that.
Best wishes,
Nina

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:44 am

Hi Nina,

Wonderful to read your reply today, you seem rather clear about this. So let's explore a little more here.

So you see that sensations in the body are just sensations in the body, not a self. And I is a thought. Yet we assume that I is the one controlling things, managing 'my' life, moving the body, making decisions, etc. Let's explore these a little.

Can a thought move the body? Raise your arm. Now lower it. Did it go? Was there an I in this experience that did any thing? Did you know when the arm would raise, or how fast it would raise? What's happening without any interpretation? Feel free to do this until you feel certain about your answer (but know the answer is 100% simple).

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:02 pm

Hi Wesley,
Yes I see that the sensations of the body are just that and that I have no control of the body - breathing happens, hair and toenails grow etc; I think this realisation became clear when I dropped something and the body caught it without thinking.
Can a thought move the body? Raise your arm. Now lower it. Did it go? Was there an I in this experience that did any thing? Did you know when the arm would raise, or how fast it would raise? What's happening without any interpretation?
The body raises and lowers the arm at random, no I involved. I sat with this for a while and let the arm do it's thing and the speed and direction vary. Thought doesn't know what is going to happen regarding the arm and without interpretation there's just movement and sensations. Then thought chimes in with 'time for a cuppa' and the body seems to dutifully trot downstairs to put the kettle on :-) this is where I struggle - it seems as though thoughts decide what to do next.
Hugs
Nina

User avatar
WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:28 pm

Hi Nina,

Interesting how the realization became clear for you when the body had a reflex to catch something!
Then thought chimes in with 'time for a cuppa' and the body seems to dutifully trot downstairs to put the kettle on :-) this is where I struggle - it seems as though thoughts decide what to do next.
Did you have to do anything in order for this to happen? Did you choose to think of tea, and then choose to walk downstairs? What exactly happened?

For the next day, I'd like you to pay close attention to how decisions are made. When picking which shirt to wear, when deciding the exact moment to get out of bed, when turning left or right. When the moment to decide comes, watch like a hawk for an I that is deciding. Let me know what you find.

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

losingnina
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby losingnina » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:02 am

Hi Wesley,
Did you have to do anything in order for this to happen? Did you choose to think of tea, and then choose to walk downstairs? What exactly happened?
No I didn't choose the thought, it just happened and the walking downstairs just followed afterwards.
For the next day, I'd like you to pay close attention to how decisions are made. When picking which shirt to wear, when deciding the exact moment to get out of bed, when turning left or right. When the moment to decide comes, watch like a hawk for an I that is deciding. Let me know what you find.
I have been a bit distracted over the last few days - I'm taking the dog to the vets today and she may have to be put to sleep. I have been suffering a lot but when I look at it I realise that it's the sad story that I'm telling myself that hurts, not what's actually happening. Most decisions seem to just be automatic, I'm not aware of a chooser. There are some decisions such as what to cook for dinner that seem to be an active choice, with thoughts weighing up the pros and cons of different options and then deciding what to make.
I'll continue to watch this and will write back more fully when I can focus properly,
Hug
Nina


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 63 guests