Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

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samba19
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Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:03 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I guess I can't really understand it at this point, otherwise a guide would be unnecessary I think. But the goal is to assist consciousness experiencing this body/mind combo labelled 'Samu' to a clear and permanent knowing that there never was and never can be a separate entity such as "me" or "I" or "a self".

What are you looking for at LU?
Upon reading the gateless gatecrashers book I knew that after all the years of seeking I had finally found something practical that could help burn the ego for good. So here I am, eager to take the steps required.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully the missing link that has kept me from seeing beyond the illusion of ego. To tap to the blind spots that seem unreachable without some outside party helping. To finally see what fear is holding me back and to step over it. To get rid of emotional reactions taken personally.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Loads of books, courses, programs, different meditation techniques etc. even a cult (LOLs). So the only thing left is actually not following any gurus/masters/other bullshit and seeing for myself.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:59 pm

Hi Samba19,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :). My name is Wesley, I'm a guide here at LU. If it's okay with you, I can be your guide. Would you like me to call you Samba, or by another name?

Thanks very much for sharing your experience. You may already know how this works, but just in case I'll summarize it. As you said below, you will be looking and seeing for yourself, my job is simply to assist you in that by asking questions to get you to look in your direct experience and find answers. Answering from thoughts is a circular trap, but simply looking to your physical senses (seeing,hearing,smelling, tasting, touching, etc.) will give you the answer for what you're looking for. And it's much simpler than we think it is. That being said, obstacles will come up, fear, resistance, turbulent emotions, confusion, all sorts of things can rise up as you look deeper, and so please also feel free to write to me and share what your thoughts are, where you're at.

There's a couple guidelines to go over before we start.
-Please do your best to post daily for the purpose of keeping up momentum. Sometimes you get busy I get it, please just write me ahead of time and let me know you'll be unable to respond. The mind will often say "I need more time," rather than admitting there isn't an answer...;). So if you can't find an answer, it's always okay to say "I can't find such and such, I don't know where/what it is".
-It sounds like you're maybe already tired of the books, videos, programs, teachers, meditation techniques and so on, but are you willing to put all of this aside for the duration of our dialogue? They're all fine, plenty of good stuff out there, but anything second-hand will not aid you in looking for yourself. And indeed looking for yourself is what seems to work.
-Here is how to use the quote function, it's very useful:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
-And please give this a read before starting just to be sure you're aware of what LU is, and what it isn't:https://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

If everything so far is good with you, then let's go ahead and start.
Hopefully the missing link that has kept me from seeing beyond the illusion of ego.
If you had to give a word for what you feel "yourself" to be, does ego work? There are plenty of options and for some, words like "self" don't quite fit. Please tell me what feels right.

Now, where does the ego live? Where does Samba exist?

Looking forward to your answers!
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:33 pm

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :). My name is Wesley, I'm a guide here at LU. If it's okay with you, I can be your guide. Would you like me to call you Samba, or by another name?
Hey Wesley! Thanks for taking the time to assist me, happy to have you as a guide! Samu is the birth name so perhaps it’s most efficient to use that.

I’ll post daily and will let you know if I can’t do it for some reason. 17th through 23rd of July I’ll be on a cruise ship and the cell phone/wifi -reception might not be great… but I’ll do my best to post each day anyhow.

All books, videos, teachers and similar stuff is off the table already. And I don’t suspect any effort keeping it that way, interest in stories/beliefs is very minimal at the moment. I might spend some time with a few friends who are working on this “no self” -stuff at this very same forum. One has actually finished already. Any danger in hanging out with them during this guiding period? I don’t have a problem just hermitting at home since the company of most people doesn’t provide much magnetism for now :) I do have to work every now and then but other than that, nothing in particular is scheduled.

A couple of thoughts about the FAQ to be cleared up:
“This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness”
-> is being free of ego not a different state to be in than the one bound by the self?
“This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings”
-> I was kinda hoping on some relief on emotional reactivity and more acceptance of what rises. I’m not expecting never feeling an emotion again but to ease up on the suffering. Is this a sticking point to begin with?
“This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.”
-> isn’t seeing that it’s not there kinda the same as getting rid of it?

My main language is not english so I might get stuck on concepts and definitions, but I’m sure guys know how to handle these challenges.

I want to be free of fear and enjoy experiencing this crazy dream called life a bit more without a self to protect and to react to irrelevant things and events. I want to know and experience the truth. To see things as they are. Am I in the right place?
Hopefully the missing link that has kept me from seeing beyond the illusion of ego.
If you had to give a word for what you feel "yourself" to be, does ego work? There are plenty of options and for some, words like "self" don't quite fit. Please tell me what feels right.
For me the “ego” word is fine. I’m unsure if I feel myself to be an “ego”, but we have to use some word so let’s make it that for a start.
Now, where does the ego live? Where does Samba exist?
I’ll keep samba as a fun style of music from brazil :D and reference “Samu” instead.

When reading the gateless book I had a revelation when a thought came to me on a hot summer day that “here I’m sitting” and I was like “shit: there’s a body sitting but no me”. And some weight seemed to be lifted from my shoulders. The pleasant effect lasted for a few days at least or perhaps I’ve gotten used to the “new” state now so it might be ongoing, I can’t tell for sure. But that much is clear, can’t find anyone inside the body really.

Still, it seems I have control over this body labelled “Samu” but no control over a bird’s body at the yard or the refrigerator nearby. Yet, I can’t prove that it’s a “me” that controls the body. But something is living, acting and making choices, we could call it “consciousness”. Can’t explain why the ability to control seems to end where the body ends. If all is one, how can this border seem to be there? Also, I can’t observe the mind of other people nor tap into their experience. That’s another line drawn that I can’t explain if there are no borders where individuality ends and “something else” or “the outside world” begins.

Some actions seem to be invited or preceded by a thought. I guess then the ego labels it as “I did that”. And when something just happens a questions arises “did I do that?”. When there was no thought before action, I think then it’s not as easily labelled as “I did that” but more towards “it just happened”. As if the doer was not there. Same with thoughts, it seems that I’m able to think for example of a purple apple upon will. But then again some thoughts just pop up totally uncontrolled, uninvited, unprovoked. This also seems a bit conflicting, thoughts labelled as “my thoughts” and “other thoughts”. They’re just thoughts, I know. But that’s how it seems to be, some consciously “thought”, some just observed.

Let’s say everything is nested inside the one and the same consciousness. But there’s still (or at least seems to be) an individual experience for every body, I think the “Samu” is wrapped around this individuality concept somehow. Plus some emotions which seem to pop up in various situations. And perhaps some attachment to recorded history of “Samu’s life” and bodily attachment (“my body”).

To sum it up, I guess the label “Samu” lives in thoughts/emotions only. I could stick a label “dick” on my forehead and it wouldn’t change anything. Just a different word pointing to the same body. This is very clear, at least intellectually.

I do know the right answers but don’t want to cheat in the math test :) I really want to SEE/KNOW beyond doubt for myself and not just be happy with a new set of beliefs. There is doubt and confusion so the path has to be unfinished. Wesley, can you point me somewhere, was that explanation helpful to see where I’m stuck? Let me know if I vomited too much information and I’ll work on keeping it shorter in the future.

xxx

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WesleySPK
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:00 am

Hello Samu :),

That's a wonderful name. Cruise ship eh? I'm a tad envious. Of course you can spend time and talk with your friends about this stuff, I see no issue in that. I did that too when being guided and shared quite a lot, it didn't seem to effect my progress. It's good that you're not so interested in the stories/beliefs, I assure you there's plenty of fun to be had simply with your own experience and exploring it.
A couple of thoughts about the FAQ to be cleared up:
“This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness”
-> is being free of ego not a different state to be in than the one bound by the self?
Thank you for bringing this up, glad you did. Yes and no, however if you hold onto an expectation for some altered state (likely of peacefulness/blissfulness) you may overlook what's in front of you. The truth is Samu, there is no self, no me, even now while you're reading these words. Only thoughts about one. That being said maybe you will experience altered states, or maybe you won't.
“This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings”
-> I was kinda hoping on some relief on emotional reactivity and more acceptance of what rises. I’m not expecting never feeling an emotion again but to ease up on the suffering. Is this a sticking point to begin with?
For most, a "layer" of suffering is removed after the self-illusion is seen through. However for many, emotional reactivity actually increases and acceptance of "what is/arises" may or may not change either. These are things that can be looked into after LU. But I would like to emphasize that no two people have the exact same experience after seeing through the illusion of a separate self.
“This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.”
-> isn’t seeing that it’s not there kinda the same as getting rid of it?
The difference is subtle, yet important - Can you get rid of something that doesn't exist?
My main language is not english so I might get stuck on concepts and definitions, but I’m sure guys know how to handle these challenges.
That's okay! Your writing is really well, I can follow you easily.
I want to be free of fear and enjoy experiencing this crazy dream called life a bit more without a self to protect and to react to irrelevant things and events. I want to know and experience the truth. To see things as they are. Am I in the right place?
You are the only one who can decide if you're in the right place or not. Personally I avoid using "the truth," but I understand what you mean and if you're absolutely set on finding out then from my perspective yes you are in the right place. The encouragement I would like to give anyone who wants to go through this is that it is absolutely worth it in my opinion, and you can do it. It is perfectly reasonable to expect freedom from fear and peace, that's what we all want isn't it? Just be open to it not happening as you expect it to. Expectations can be an obstacle.
Wesley, can you point me somewhere, was that explanation helpful to see where I’m stuck? Let me know if I vomited too much information and I’ll work on keeping it shorter in the future.
Not at all too much information, write away please.
When reading the gateless book I had a revelation when a thought came to me on a hot summer day that “here I’m sitting” and I was like “shit: there’s a body sitting but no me”. And some weight seemed to be lifted from my shoulders. The pleasant effect lasted for a few days at least or perhaps I’ve gotten used to the “new” state now so it might be ongoing, I can’t tell for sure. But that much is clear, can’t find anyone inside the body really.
I see, it could have been a major blow to the foundation so to speak. Either way, the exercises and questions can help deepen or clarify.
Still, it seems I have control over this body labelled “Samu” but no control over a bird’s body at the yard or the refrigerator nearby.
So there is an "I" and a "Samu" which it seems to control? Can either be found right now?
But something is living, acting and making choices, we could call it “consciousness”. Can’t explain why the ability to control seems to end where the body ends. If all is one, how can this border seem to be there? Also, I can’t observe the mind of other people nor tap into their experience. That’s another line drawn that I can’t explain if there are no borders where individuality ends and “something else” or “the outside world” begins.
Right, breathing, choices happening, thinking, feeling, all of it is happening. Is an ego or I needed for these to go on?

Does your experience right now say "all is one"? Or where does this come from?

Let's try a quick exercise:
Please go through each sense perception
Sight: what can be seen?
Hearing: what can be heard?
Touching: what can be felt?
Tasting: what can be tasted?

Now go to your thinking. What are thoughts saying about what you're perceiving?

Let's stick to this for now, simple can be good :).

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:24 am

So there is an "I" and a "Samu" which it seems to control? Can either be found right now?
I’m unsure what you refer to by “it” controlling. There’s no Samu to be controlled, Samu is a name tag for a body, a thought. But the “I” refers to an individual perspective, something that is aware, something that is experiencing life through this body, something that seems to be able to make choices, to animate the body. If I want to have a taste of wine from a glass on the table - it seems to happen. But if I want the bird on the yard to fly away, it may or may not happen. That the driver for the mind/body combo is not the same driver that the bird outside has. Or it seems to be this way, “I” deciding to animate the body upon will but not really anything other than that. Breathing, heart beating etc. happens on autopilot, that’s clear. But many things seem to be operated by “something”. Am I making any sense here? How could I see that there’s just “life living itself”? I can’t seem to get rid of the belief that there has to be something that is aware. I can’t pinpoint what exactly that is.

To sum up how it seems to me: Samu can be found as a thought/label only, “I” can be found as the individual reference point, the one that is aware of life through senses of the body labelled “Samu”.
Right, breathing, choices happening, thinking, feeling, all of it is happening. Is an ego or I needed for these to go on?
I know the right answer is no. But regarding the “choices happening”, it seems that before making a choice about for example going to sleep it will not happen. Like there’s something needed to operate the body and decide what it does and experiences. I can’t prove that it’s ego or “I” that’s needed for that but something seems to be needed. I guess we’ve found my sticking point :)
Does your experience right now say "all is one"? Or where does this come from?
LOLs, I'm busted! I guess it refers to experience, experiencer and experienced being one and the same with no separation. And no, I can’t say that I’m experiencing this. Or if I ever have or ever will. Another assumption that I can’t back up with anything other than thought/belief. Down the toilet it goes….
Let's try a quick exercise:
Please go through each sense perception
Sight: what can be seen?
- light, color, shape
Hearing: what can be heard?
- sound (vibrating air molecules if I went scientific)
Touching: what can be felt?
- sensations (is that the right word?)
Tasting: what can be tasted?
- taste
Now go to your thinking. What are thoughts saying about what you're perceiving?
Thoughts label all perception into concepts. I see a cat. I hear the toilet. I sense the computer keypad through the fingers. I taste a strawberry.

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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:03 am

Hi Samu,

Busy day here, I'll write tomorrow.

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:35 am

Hi Samu,
But the “I” refers to an individual perspective, something that is aware, something that is experiencing life through this body, something that seems to be able to make choices, to animate the body.
To sum up how it seems to me: Samu can be found as a thought/label only, “I” can be found as the individual reference point, the one that is aware of life through senses of the body labelled “Samu”.
Aha, this is precisely what we want to look closely at/for. It seems you are clear that "Samu" is no more than a thought-label.

Can you see that saying "something that is aware" comes from an assumption, not from your direct experience now? Must there be something that is aware, something that experiences life or makes choices?

Let's try an exercise. Take 5-10 minutes and write down everything that is happening like this:
I am breathing.
I am laying down
I am thinking
I feel sensations
I hear the birds outside
I am typing
I feel the pressure from the bed

List as many things as you want! Now, what sensations are present while you're writing this?
Down the toilet it goes….
;) lol
Thoughts label all perception into concepts. I see a cat. I hear the toilet. I sense the computer keypad through the fingers. I taste a strawberry.
Well seen! This is going to be handy.

Samu, let's stick to the exercise I have for now and next time I would like to look into some of your questions about body functioning and where the I is in that.

Big hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:44 pm

Now, what sensations are present while you're writing this?
Hi Wesley my man! Can you be more precise what "sensations" refer to in this context? Bodily sensations like "wind on my skin" or "pressure on my chest" or "breathing happening" or something else? So I can do this exercise properly. Cheers!

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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:50 pm

Hi Samu,
Hi Wesley my man! Can you be more precise what "sensations" refer to in this context? Bodily sensations like "wind on my skin" or "pressure on my chest" or "breathing happening" or something else? So I can do this exercise properly. Cheers!
Of course, my apologies that I wasn't precise enough! Any bodily sensations are fine, but with this exercise in particular I want you to notice any sensations that we would normally label as "tension". Most common seems to be a sensation in the stomach, or tightness in the throat, or tightness in the back (I have that right now, I need a massage!).

Not so much sensations that are due to coming into contact with anything else. Sensations that we normally label "inside".

Cheers,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:54 pm

Can you see that saying "something that is aware" comes from an assumption, not from your direct experience now? Must there be something that is aware, something that experiences life or makes choices?
My head seems to be thick on this :) no, can’t directly experience the experiencer. Just doesn’t make sense that there would be perception without perceiver but I know that’s the correct answer. Can you give the final push to destroy the belief in “the observer” of experience? The body receives the data (that’s an assumption as well, shit..) but who’s aware of the data - no idea.

Also when looking into this a thought popped up: “I am being aware” and then I noticed a tightness in the throat and looked at that for a while. Some sensations were there as well and they gradually faded. This has happened many times before. I’ve sat with this feeling for hours and it seems to persist and come up again. Change form and place, shape, swirl, move, whatever. But there seems to be no final release, either there’s a million layers or I’m not getting anywhere with it. I got an idea that it might be trying to hide weakness that I’ve subconsciously labelled as “bad” and non-displayable publicly.
Let's try an exercise. Take 5-10 minutes and write down everything that is happening like this:
I am breathing.
I am laying down
I am thinking
I feel sensations
I hear the birds outside
I am typing
I feel the pressure from the bed

List as many things as you want! Now, what sensations are present while you're writing this?
I am typing. I am breathing. I am moving my body. I am seeing. I am feeling the keyboard. I am hearing the fan above my head. I am looking at the mirror. I am taking notes. I am realising stuff. I am being present. Etc.

It seems ridiculous since I don’t believe in what I’m writing :D those things happen.

Some sensations like tightness in the throat, ache in the head, body swinging sideways while sitting, some heart pounding and stomach releasing an emotion type of a sensation happened. A tingling sensation from the head down the body, also something happening in the nervous system. Then stomach/diaphragm area getting tight again. I bet the “self” is hiding in the emotion/feelings-department…

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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:27 am

HI Samu,
My head seems to be thick on this :) no, can’t directly experience the experiencer. Just doesn’t make sense that there would be perception without perceiver but I know that’s the correct answer.
Does it seem to simple to be true? Why doesn't it make sense? Doesn't the evidence show the opposite, there is no perceiver to be found? (and thinker/feeler/controller, etc).
Also when looking into this a thought popped up: “I am being aware” and then I noticed a tightness in the throat and looked at that for a while. Some sensations were there as well and they gradually faded. This has happened many times before. I’ve sat with this feeling for hours and it seems to persist and come up again. Change form and place, shape, swirl, move, whatever. But there seems to be no final release, either there’s a million layers or I’m not getting anywhere with it. I got an idea that it might be trying to hide weakness that I’ve subconsciously labelled as “bad” and non-displayable publicly.
I see, can you welcome it? I would suggest to just feel it, without thoughts interpreting it if possible. For example, there is a feeling in the throat, is there a reason to believe it should have a final release? Can it just be there and can that be okay? (this is a trick question, because if you think it can't be there try and get rid of it ;) )
I am typing. I am breathing. I am moving my body. I am seeing. I am feeling the keyboard. I am hearing the fan above my head. I am looking at the mirror. I am taking notes. I am realising stuff. I am being present. Etc.

It seems ridiculous since I don’t believe in what I’m writing :D those things happen.
Great job. So it isn't very believable? Now try the same exercise and omit the "I". Notice the sensations present in the body, whether there is more tension or less tension, if it seems to represent reality more or not.
Some sensations like tightness in the throat, ache in the head, body swinging sideways while sitting, some heart pounding and stomach releasing an emotion type of a sensation happened. A tingling sensation from the head down the body, also something happening in the nervous system. Then stomach/diaphragm area getting tight again. I bet the “self” is hiding in the emotion/feelings-department…
Okay, would you like to look there? Is there any emotion or sensation in the body that seems it could be "me"? Does it seem perhaps like "I am sad" or "I am happy" or "I am mad" or "I am scared"? Or any emotion, is there an I that is the emotion? Or maybe I is what's feeling them?

Write what's true for you

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:43 pm

Hey there!
Does it seem to simple to be true? Why doesn't it make sense? Doesn't the evidence show the opposite, there is no perceiver to be found? (and thinker/feeler/controller, etc).
It seems like there is awareness and that awareness is aware of life. And if “I” can directly experience the body, senses, thoughts, then there is awareness, right? I’m not saying there’s an “I” but there’s awareness. Hmm, this seems to be pickle for me… getting nowhere, blah.. don’t even know if I’m using understandable terminology here. Damn words!
I see, can you welcome it? I would suggest to just feel it, without thoughts interpreting it if possible. For example, there is a feeling in the throat, is there a reason to believe it should have a final release? Can it just be there and can that be okay? (this is a trick question, because if you think it can't be there try and get rid of it ;) )
Haha, you just made me realise I have no control over the sensations, they happen. I guess there could be some subconscious resistance to feeling something labelled as “unpleasant”. No, there’s no reason. Just an assumption once again that since previously emotions have had a sort of a release in a sense that they don’t become activated in certain situations anymore. I’ll work being ok with the feeling and not resisting or creating stories of what it might be.
Great job. So it isn't very believable? Now try the same exercise and omit the "I". Notice the sensations present in the body, whether there is more tension or less tension, if it seems to represent reality more or not.
There is tiredness. Typing happens. There is presence. Sensations are felt in the forehead. Bed makes a sound against the wall. Eyelids are feeling heavy. Body moving on it’s own. Eyes blink.

The pressure feeling in the throat activated. A part of it moved to the chest. Breathing changing. Tingling sensations is sensed on the left side of the nose.

Yes, more representation of reality without the “I” in there.
Okay, would you like to look there? Is there any emotion or sensation in the body that seems it could be "me"? Does it seem perhaps like "I am sad" or "I am happy" or "I am mad" or "I am scared"? Or any emotion, is there an I that is the emotion? Or maybe I is what's feeling them?
Can’t really say that they would be anything more than sensations just happening. Not really happening to anyone, just being noticed. Not much “me-ness” to be found.

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Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:45 pm

Hi Samu,
It seems like there is awareness and that awareness is aware of life.
Is this "awareness" found in your direct experience right now? Can you see/hear/smell/taste/touch it? If not, what and where is it?
And if “I” can directly experience the body, senses, thoughts, then there is awareness, right?
Are you saying that there must be awareness to perceive the body, senses, and thoughts? If so, is this an assumption that comes from your direct experience right now, or from thoughts? It's good to keep it simple - look at your shoe right now. Notice the color, what the laces are like, the design. Now look at awareness, can it be done?

The key is to look. If you look right now, you will not find anything like a self or me or awareness, but thoughts quickly step in and say "it's too simple" or "but...it feels like it's here!" and so on.
Hmm, this seems to be pickle for me… getting nowhere, blah.. don’t even know if I’m using understandable terminology here. Damn words!
Getting in pickles is a great sign to me ;). I understand you perfectly.
Haha, you just made me realise I have no control over the sensations, they happen. I guess there could be some subconscious resistance to feeling something labelled as “unpleasant”. No, there’s no reason. Just an assumption once again that since previously emotions have had a sort of a release in a sense that they don’t become activated in certain situations anymore. I’ll work being ok with the feeling and not resisting or creating stories of what it might be
Right! It can be tiresome if we think we have control over uncomfortable sensations and emotions. Well seen. Can that subconscious resistance be found either? In your direct experience, what is "subconscious resistance"?
Yes, more representation of reality without the “I” in there.
Great. If doubt arises, or if it seems there is in fact an I doing all these things, you could simply check in now and then with the question "where is 'I' in this"? Then look for an 'I', or me/self/awareness.

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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samba19
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:01 am

Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby samba19 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:36 pm

Is this "awareness" found in your direct experience right now? Can you see/hear/smell/taste/touch it? If not, what and where is it?
You’re twisting my arm badly Wesley :) nope, can’t say that I can directly experience consciousness with the five senses. Just assuming that there has to be something, that a movie without a watcher is pointless - perhaps that’s what you're trying to make me see, that there’s no point in anything. Can’t prove the existence of “consciousness” or “awareness”. On the other hand I can’t prove anything else either :) like sensing a universe doesn’t prove it’s existence. But yeah, that’s another story I guess… there’s lots happening in the physical world that our senses cannot sense (like radio waves) - is that useless regarding this “seeing there’s no self” -project? Or is that a belief also, that there’s stuff happening on all kinds of frequencies that we cannot directly experience?

From your perspective - is the body also not aware of what is being sensed by the senses? My head gets jammed while trying to figure this one out, or is that the point - that this cannot be figured out? Just to see my assumptions? I don’t even know what is communicating with what here :) Or is anything communicating with anything? LOLs. Two bodies with different labels “samu” and “wesley” typing to each other and no-one transmitting or receiving anything? It’s a tough nut to crack…
Are you saying that there must be awareness to perceive the body, senses, and thoughts? If so, is this an assumption that comes from your direct experience right now, or from thoughts? It's good to keep it simple - look at your shoe right now. Notice the color, what the laces are like, the design. Now look at awareness, can it be done?
From thoughts once again. Perhaps the residue of the belief in “awareness” gets flushed on it’s own at some point. Can’t use the five senses to pinpoint “awareness”.
Right! It can be tiresome if we think we have control over uncomfortable sensations and emotions. Well seen. Can that subconscious resistance be found either? In your direct experience, what is "subconscious resistance"?
I guess it’s another assumption that the body has trouble experiencing certain stuff labelled as “unpleasant” or “unacceptable” and then tries to hide or avoid certain situations or events or circumstances. But yeah - once again we are in the world of thoughts and beliefs. No direct experience of any of that right now. But let’s say mom is coming over and I might feel anxious for no conscious reason. And don’t really know why - that’s why I used the word “subconscious”. I guess there’s again that tendency to try to understand what the feeling/emotion is about instead of just experiencing it. So if I sense tightness in the belly or throat area I’ve interpreted it as “resistance”. But that’s a label again, nothing more. Don’t really know what it actually is. Does this make any sense?
Great. If doubt arises, or if it seems there is in fact an I doing all these things, you could simply check in now and then with the question "where is 'I' in this"? Then look for an 'I', or me/self/awareness.
Thanks - good exercise, have tried it and will continue to do so!

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WesleySPK
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

Re: Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:49 am

Hi Samu,
that a movie without a watcher is pointless
Why is it pointless?
On the other hand I can’t prove anything else either
Are you sure? Pick up a nearby object or look around the room, I would hope there's a laptop or computer screen in front of you that you're able to read this, doesn't that exist?
there’s lots happening in the physical world that our senses cannot sense (like radio waves) - is that useless regarding this “seeing there’s no self” -project? Or is that a belief also, that there’s stuff happening on all kinds of frequencies that we cannot directly experience?
You know, that's a good question. And I sat here trying to write a good response, but I think it's best we just look for ourselves!

So:
-What's the evidence we have for the existence of radio waves? Or any other kind of waves/rays that we cannot detect with the senses?
-What's the evidence for the me/self/I?
From your perspective - is the body also not aware of what is being sensed by the senses? My head gets jammed while trying to figure this one out, or is that the point - that this cannot be figured out? Just to see my assumptions?
Voilà! Exactly! Head jamming is good. This really is simpler than thoughts take it to be, all that's required is to look.
Two bodies with different labels “samu” and “wesley” typing to each other and no-one transmitting or receiving anything? It’s a tough nut to crack…
Well, bodies yes but not like we are devoid of thoughts, emotions, everything we previously associated with me. Just no "me". I'm reading your message, there's thinking going on, sounds happening around, typing, everything is going on as it did before. Just that the thought "me" is seen as just a thought, not a real thing.

There's a wonderful quote that you may enjoy: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

So what stays without any belief, and what "goes away" so to speak?
So if I sense tightness in the belly or throat area I’ve interpreted it as “resistance”. But that’s a label again, nothing more. Don’t really know what it actually is. Does this make any sense?
Yes! So just see what it actually is in your direct experience - sensation in belly + thoughts of resistance.

-W
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei


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