Making contact

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ShrugB1
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Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:22 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
A process of development from unconscious whole brain state in babyhood, through a state of Left Brain Dominance (LBD) to a state of conscious whole brain (WB). But a "me"- focused culture operates in LBD effectively trapping LB in the LBD state - hence the suffering of the illusory separate self. Perhaps LU can free LB from LBD.

What are you looking for at LU?
The reassurance that I'm not the only person in the world who sees liberation from the illusory self as the most significant purpose in life. To receive alternative input and encouragement when "the process" appears to stall. To possibly offer alternative input and encouragement.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity that comes from communication with someone else who knows about liberation.
I sometimes find it difficult to tell the difference between the need to "keep going" which is really resistance to liberation and the need to "keep going" as part of the process of liberation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
After learning guided meditation on a course in Jungian psychotherapy, I experienced spontaneous "awakening" 30 years ago. It lasted for 2 days. Ever since I've been learning to let go of the processes that eclipse the awakened state. The letting go is psychological, emotional and physical. It all seems to happen by itself so it's a matter of trying to stay positive throughout the frightening bits, not trying to make anything happen or get in the way. To co-operate with the unknown.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:09 am

Hello ShrugB1

(do tell me if you'd like me to use a different label ;-) )

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon. I have read you introductory post with interest.
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
A process of development from unconscious whole brain state in babyhood, through a state of Left Brain Dominance (LBD) to a state of conscious whole brain (WB). But a "me"- focused culture operates in LBD effectively trapping LB in the LBD state - hence the suffering of the illusory separate self. Perhaps LU can free LB from LBD.
How can I be of assistance? Is there something particular that you would like to look at?

What we do is offer a conversation, a chat as between friends if you like? An inquiry really, your inquiry. I can assist by asking some questions. Usually, this takes the form of a guiding towards the realization that 'self' was never a real thing but more of a habit of thinking.

warm regards,

Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:43 am

Hello Jon, I'm Hazel.
Resistance is expressed through my body. It's as if insights are followed by physical restructuring in different body parts. When specific body parts became loose, I adapt over a period of time to allow the restructuring. But now the focus is on my hands. It is bringing up great fear to do with incapacity. I sense that guidance is telling me to just let them go - let the old programming empty out as happened with other parts. I did have trouble with letting go of my eyes through the fear of losing sight but of course I found that my sight corrected. (no glasses needed). But it feels too difficult to let go of my hands. I already feel very restricted through loss of their "old" functioning and can't get beyond the idea that if I let them go completely I would be totally helpless. The energy flow through them changes all the time and I've found that it helps to not label this as pain but as "restructuring". It's as if I'm clinging onto the idea that no hands, means no "me" to look after myself. My hands seem to be acting out this illusion. The idea that I am responsible for myself at a practical level feels so deeply embedded.
Thank you for reading this, Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:07 am

Hello Hazel,

I do apologise for not seeing your reply before now. You replied to me two weeks after I had written to you. By then I'm afraid that your thread had worked its way beyond the first page on LU Gate and I did not see it again.

I can still guide you, if you wish? If you decide to accept, please post regularly, around once a day, as this helps your inquiry. Long delays in communication can be like 'dropping the batton'.
Resistance is expressed through my body. It's as if insights are followed by physical restructuring in different body parts. When specific body parts became loose, I adapt over a period of time to allow the restructuring. But now the focus is on my hands. It is bringing up great fear to do with incapacity. I sense that guidance is telling me to just let them go - let the old programming empty out as happened with other parts. I did have trouble with letting go of my eyes through the fear of losing sight but of course I found that my sight corrected. (no glasses needed). But it feels too difficult to let go of my hands. I already feel very restricted through loss of their "old" functioning and can't get beyond the idea that if I let them go completely I would be totally helpless. The energy flow through them changes all the time and I've found that it helps to not label this as pain but as "restructuring". It's as if I'm clinging onto the idea that no hands, means no "me" to look after myself. My hands seem to be acting out this illusion. The idea that I am responsible for myself at a practical level feels so deeply embedded.
(As you can see I have used the 'Quote' function above. This can be very handy and please feel free to use it, if you wish to quote. The button for this is at the top of the editing window).
The idea that I am responsible for myself at a practical level feels so deeply embedded
I understand. We can address this during our conversation if you like?
I did have trouble with letting go of my eyes through the fear of losing sight but of course I found that my sight corrected. (no glasses needed).
How wonderful! Was it that your eyes had been a focus of some unhappiness or identification? When you 'let go' of eyes, was it a letting go of some aggravation associated with them?
It's as if I'm clinging onto the idea that no hands, means no "me" to look after myself
I can see how that could be frightening.

Please let me know why letting go of hands would be a good or necessary thing, in your view?

What if the idea of no 'me' to look after myself is simply thought-fear, a contraction of mind and feelings?

What if seeing through 'me' could bring a dropping of some fears?

Warm regards,

Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:58 pm

Please let me know why letting go of hands would be a good or necessary thing, in your view?
Because other parts of my body have been "let go of" leading to a feeling of a less contracted state.

What if the idea of no 'me' to look after myself is simply thought-fear, a contraction of mind and feelings?
I notice that when something goes wrong - like my computer trolley has just collapsed - the contraction is really obvious. Now there's a "me" who has to sort this out.

What if seeing through 'me' could bring a dropping of some fears?
Sitting in the debris from the trolley collapse - feeling anxious about straining my hands - "me" feels overwhelmed by all the things that need attending to. So I ask whole brain how it feels about the situation (by moving attention from the front to the centre of my head) - immediately energy starts to flow - I see how tiring it is to hold the contracted state. It's as if a contracted state manages to take over when something undesired happens and seems to think that it must continue until the "problem" is solved. I see that I wouldn't "hold my breath" at critical moments but there is a habit of "stopping energetic flow".
as if this is necessary - a sort of ridiculous way of concentrating. I also see that just before the trolley collapsed I was slightly contracted and would have lived with this but by things getting worse, the contraction increased. Today I've seen the connection between feeling contracted and focusing from the front of my head and feeling in energy flow when focusing from the centre of my head. My father used to say to my mother "hold your horses" - it's just like that. The energy in the head can stay centred - to be at home there whatever happens. I feel that I'm being asked to make a commitment to staying centred as so far I've been going back and forth as it were.
Thank you Jon
Hazel

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:09 pm

Hi Hazel,

I'm going to be quite honest with you and say that I am not very familiar with the sort of practice of very specific awareness of particular parts of the body that you describe. There appears to be an association of energy with noticing regions such as hands or front of head?

This is not a problem but it is necessary for me to gain a clear understanding of what you mean. I cannot just assume that I know exactly what you are talking about. However there are resonances with the sensations and energies you describe. It should be possible for us to address and investigate body sensations/energies as part of inquiring into 'self'.

First though, please tell me what is your current understanding of what 'you' are?


Best wishes,

Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:41 pm

I see myself as a processing system which is programmed to automatically upgrade in order to express in new creative ways. But the thought-constructed "me" keeps blocking the progress. It's as if conditioning makes me resistant to the upgrades - makes them into "problems" when they are really invitations/opportunities. I've cleared a lot of personal resistance and feel that the hands issue is coming from a collective conditioning. It's as if generations of "slaves" on many levels have had to use their hands to dig coal, operate factory machinery etc and although I was a teacher before I retired, the profession made us into slaves of a system that we teachers knew couldn't work.
Life seems to be asking: "What are these hands really for when there is no "me" making me into a slave".
I once worked with a woman on a transformation course who as a child (of Christian missionaries) had been in Zanzibar - a centre of slave trading. She experienced her hands being in chains and found that they were numb. As the chains were removed (in guided imagery) her hands started to hurt as the circulation returned. She saw how liberation involves pain. I can relate to this.
But is this just a limiting thought? It occurs to me that there is a liberating thought that I'm claiming my hands for all those who who didn't have the choice.

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:06 pm

Life seems to be asking: "What are these hands really for when there is no "me" making me into a slave".
Who or what needs to find an answer to this?

Is there actually a problem here if there is no 'slave', no 'me'?

What need to let go of 'hands'?


Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:42 am

Who or what needs to find an answer to this?
I don't think anyone needs to find an answer in words - the answer is a lived response.

Is there actually a problem here if there is no 'slave', no 'me'?
There might be - being the only one free amongst slaves.

What needs to let go of 'hands'?
What fears having nothing to hold onto.

(When I try to use the quote and other buttons, they just appear as a code - the function is performed)

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:32 am

Hi Hazel,
(When I try to use the quote and other buttons, they just appear as a code - the function is performed)
Yes, that's right. You only see how the effect works when you finally click on the Preview button (below). If all looks correct then you click on Submit.

Having read again your opening statement from July 8th, I have one or two questions.
A process of development from unconscious whole brain state in babyhood, through a state of Left Brain Dominance (LBD) to a state of conscious whole brain (WB). But a "me"- focused culture operates in LBD effectively trapping LB in the LBD state - hence the suffering of the illusory separate self. Perhaps LU can free LB from LBD.
Whilst I recognise the theories you mention here (and understand your concerns) it cannot be known or predicted how seeing no self will be experienced. It's our aim in these conversations to guide towards seeing that there is no self. There is no guarantee of achieving what you mention and any expectation as to how 'liberation' ought to look or be experienced is likely to eclipse the inquiry.

Once again, I must reiterate that I am not familiar with what you have been doing in attempting to let go of different parts of the body, nor how you have been trying to do this. Nor whether or not it relates to investigating 'self' or not. What you have been doing sounds really interesting, by the way.

Are you interested in seeing no self? Seeing that there is no self?
Would you like me to guide you towards seeing that?

If the answer is 'yes' I can propose a few exercises that should assist you in your inquiry.

Best wishes,

Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:14 pm

Hi Jon. After a few Alexander technique lessons many years ago, I found that my body automatically found the next part that needed to be released to bring about a freer, more balanced body. About 6 years ago my lower back released. Now I feel the vertical channel and chakras and the constantly changing movement through the energy body when I think of the space in the centre of my head. This shows me the relationship between the energy body and the denser physical body. This is how I know that the next (and possibly the last) place up for release is the hands.
Most days something happens to trigger a contracted "me" state. I used to dread this until I saw it as useful feedback. Focus has shifted to the front of my head and I can't feel the energy body. I've learned to shift focus back to the centre to release the contracted state and the trigger is revealed. The trigger is always a limiting belief which when seen, sort of dissolves. As the energy body comes back into awareness it feels bigger or stronger than before as if enriched by the energy of what was the limiting belief.
I find that the limiting beliefs are not personal but are characteristic of people raised in a Left Brain Dominant culture and need to be released in order to shift to the Whole Brain state. The beliefs are developments of the core belief in a separate "me". Reasons why "me" seems necessary for survival in this culture.
I sense that I'm approaching a point of no return when this stage of the energetic process will have served its purpose. I think that I'm holding onto my hands out of fear of the unknown. Recently I watched a newly emerged butterfly just take off over the roof tops. "Me" thought that if this were me I would have wanted a few little practice flights first!!!!
I accept that having read this, you may consider that I'm not suitable for LU guidance. I see that I have suffered longer or unnecessarily (poor me) through not seeing the potential of some aspects of this transformation process, so I am interested to explore possibilities. But then perhaps there is nothing to do - it's all sorting itself out.
Thank you and Best Wishes.
Hazel

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:49 pm

Hello Hazel,

Thank you for that extra information. It's still not easy to know if our guiding will help you but we can certainly make a start?

Let's take the hands, as you mention these a lot?

Without looking at hands, or with eyes closed and hands resting on a table, become aware of the sensation of 'hands resting on table'. This may be a feeling of pressure or perhaps warmth? However this is experienced simply notice these feelings directly.

Right here and now, is there 'a person', 'experiencing the experience' of hands?

Is there an experiencer that is experiencing these feelings?

Explore the sensations directly. With eyes closed are there 'hands experiencing'?

Tell me what's going on?


best wishes,

Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:02 am

Hi Jon,
When I touch the table, there is an initial sensation of something more solid than my hand. But then the boundary dissolves and there is a sense of space.
Right here and now, is there 'a person', 'experiencing the experience' of hands?

On first contact with the table, the experience feels more personal but then the spaciousness is felt in a general way. So at first there is an experiencer but this changes to a more generalised experience of space. It's as if the space is the experiencer and invites more experiences - like being aware of the chair I'm sitting on -which quickly comes to feel like a marshmallow which experiences itself. Space keeps looking for new boundaries for the pleasure of dissolving them. This state has its own rhythm/frequency.
It's as if there's a "me" - like a vehicle for the initial contact - a servant of the space - but then that "me" dies/dissolves and a new temporary "me" arises for a new dissolving. This is a continuous process likes waves in the ocean. But when a "me" is hung onto by mind, the space isn't experienced - it's as if identification with mind/me is a different frequency from the space which experiences itself. There is misalignment - being "off line". Suffering. Enslavement.
Identification with mind invents a "me" which it makes into a slave by making it afraid of death and therefore grateful to mind for apparently keeping it alive. But there's no need to fear the death of "me" as a new one always replaces the one that just dissolved. So this is eternity, abundance. Freedom from identification with mind.
Hazel

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JonathanR
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Re: Making contact

Postby JonathanR » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:00 pm

Hi Hazel,
like being aware of the chair I'm sitting on -which quickly comes to feel like a marshmallow which experiences itself. Space keeps looking for new boundaries for the pleasure of dissolving them. This state has its own rhythm/frequency.
That's rather beautiful.
It's as if there's a "me" - like a vehicle for the initial contact - a servant of the space - but then that "me" dies/dissolves and a new temporary "me" arises for a new dissolving. This is a continuous process likes waves in the ocean
That's also beautiful.
But when a "me" is hung onto by mind, the space isn't experienced - it's as if identification with mind/me is a different frequency from the space which experiences itself. There is misalignment - being "off line". Suffering. Enslavement.
The perception of such, perhaps?

Wherein lies this enslavement?

What is the one that suffers? Or is it a thought that 'one suffers'?
Identification with mind invents a "me" which it makes into a slave by making it afraid of death and therefore grateful to mind for apparently keeping it alive. But there's no need to fear the death of "me" as a new one always replaces the one that just dissolved. So this is eternity, abundance. Freedom from identification with mind.
Is 'mind' findable in immediate experience?

Where is mind? See if it can be found.

Best wisjes,

Jon

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ShrugB1
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Re: Making contact

Postby ShrugB1 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:27 pm

when a "me" is hung onto by mind, the space isn't experienced - it's as if identification with mind/me is a different frequency from the space which experiences itself. There is misalignment - being "off line". Suffering. Enslavement.
The perception of such, perhaps?
It's as if there's the assumption that what arises each moment must be added into the story. The story of "me". So this focuses attention on the form/content of what is arising instead of the space in which the form is arising. As if there's a film Director examining the apparent content as material with which to shape the story.
Wherein lies this enslavement?
I wonder if the belief in continuity and the assumption that there is a need to create a story causes the enslavement because this maintains a mental construct of a film Director who seems real with an endless job to do.
What is the one that suffers? Or is it a thought that 'one suffers'?
The film Director seems to be the slave driver but is also a slave trapped in the process of making the film. How exhausting!!!!!! I've been entertaining thoughts that I'm a slave when really I'm keeping a slave. Oops! "He" has been begging to be seen so that he can retire. Then the content of what arises becomes unimportant. It doesn't all have to add up to anything. No story required.
Thank you so much for your encouragement and patient support, Jon
Hazel


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