Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby nonaparry » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:32 am

Hi, Welcome to LU forum!!

i am called Nona and i will be your guide. Please tell me a little bit about your journey so far, how you come to be at LU, and what you hope to find.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Hi Nona, thanks for helping me. In the past I have done yoga and lots of inquiry into religions such as Buddism and such. Right now I am practising QiGong every day and using what I call the Katie Work to look into all those beliefs I am carrying around.
I experienced the "watcher" or the lack of "I" recently on a retreat at Spirit Rock where we were silently practicing Vipassana and QiGong for a week. This time it was expansive and lasted a long time. When I open to the possibility now I find my mind shies away, makes up excuses, stories etc. Case of the Bolting Mind.
I hope to question the fear my mind feels, or the I feels, about there not being an I. Fascinating. How do I start?

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby nonaparry » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:42 pm

Excellent, thank you so much, Janet.

Here's how we will proceed: i'll ask questions; you investigate deeply, looking for your own truth from personal experience, not what you've read or heard from others.
You must take your time, answering only when sure that you have found your truest response, no matter what it may be or what you think about it. It's an inquiry. i probe, you look deeply and respond.

Will you commit to 100% honesty and posting here at least once a day? (i know you are in a hurry, and will try to keep up with you!)

If so, please continue.

i address the fear first.
When I open to the possibility now I find my mind shies away, makes up excuses, stories etc. Case of the Bolting Mind.
Good.
Fear is actually a Protective Mechanism; it arises when mind believes there is some DANGER. This can be a good thing! You don't want to go leaping off cliffs or drowning in the sea, and fear has you stop before you can engage in these hasty behaviours.
The 'danger' here, of course, is that you may actually find what we are looking for: that there is no 'you' in reality at all.

Look squarely at the fear; stare it 'in the eye'. The fear itself is like a door; it holds you from looking behind the door. It's just fear. It’s ok for it to be there doing its job. Just let it be there, acknowledge its presence, check where it feels physically in the body.
What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you; ask fear to share its wisdom.
If there is no self, then there is nothing that needs to be protected. Right?
Honour the feeling. Bow to it, thank it for doing it’s job.
Now look behind.
Is there anything behind the fear?
What?


Please return to this exercise whenever you feel fear or anxiety about finding no "I".

Note: We are not out to destroy an "I" or a Janet; we are going to see through the illusion that separate self ever existed. Nothing real will be lost in the process.
I experienced the "watcher" or the lack of "I" recently on a retreat at Spirit Rock
Please describe this experience more fully. Who experienced what exactly?

Is the 'watcher' really a lack of "I"? or is it merely a re-identification with the one that sees the "I"? And who/what watches the watcher?

What we do here at LU is Direct Pointing. i will be asking you to leave intellect behind in favour of direct experience. As self-identified people, we tend to live in our mind; yet thinking never took anyone through the gate.

Now please consider what are your expectations of liberation? What do you believe it is and what do you want from it?

i look forward to your reply!
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:27 am

Will you commit to 100% honesty and posting here at least once a day? (i know you are in a hurry, and will try to keep up with you!)
yes

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby nonaparry » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:34 am

Great! Please answer the questions i posted in my last message.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Last night I confronted the story of the watcher and what that was to me. Words for a wordless experience. Here goes.
After a week of silence practicing Vipassana meditation and alternating with QiGong my mind began to quieten , thoughts began to arise and I would notice them and then they would recede and I would be quiet for a while. In that space I experienced an expansion of what I call consciousness. Like the tide going out my awareness of me receded and flowing forward was a presence much bigger than I. There was a consciousness looking out of my eyes in a way that was bigger than my eyes and not personal, no thinking, no attachment. There was a physical feeling also. A feeling of spaciousness especially in the head area, open space vast open space and expansion. This time there was no fear. I connected that feeling of impersonal presence with what my teacher calls the watcher. A presence seperate from the ego. The watcher was just there, present and expanding. It wasn’t watching anyone or anything. My body was drinking tea. My eyes were absorbing the beauty of the sunrise. No thoughts. Attention.
This is the best way I can put words to it.
Now your questions -
Who experienced what exactly? - my body experienced some sensations. "I" was not present.
Is the 'watcher' really a lack of "I"? or is it merely a re-identification with the one that sees the "I"? Maybe I need a better word. And yes a lack of I.
And who/what watches the watcher? - Good question and one that I cannot answer yet. Putting it on my inquiry list. Along with the question of where do "I" go when I am asleep.

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:26 pm

Nona’s question - What is fear itself? - Sitting for a while with the fear is hard. My mind keeps jumping off into other subjects. I am so good at this evasion when I am inquiring. Mmm. Fear is an emotion that I feel in my body. If I allow it to flow through my body it disippates. My body feels fear sometimes when it feels it will be obliterated. Such as yesterday when a car crashed into the back of my car. That fear was from the limbic system, automatic and primal, I felt it electrically on my skin and in my body like fire. My eyes got big and round.
My mind also feels fear when I think I am going to be oblitered. When my ego thinks it will not be able to play its games. I feel that fear more in my chest area. Its a way of retreating instead of opening. Its a closing off of all possibilities. Its the opposite of love. My sense of self needs to be protected. Thats why I want to inquire into the self. What am I protecting. I am going to inquire further into this and sit with this tonight.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby nonaparry » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:05 am

Nona’s question - What is fear itself? - Sitting for a while with the fear is hard. My mind keeps jumping off into other subjects. I am so good at this evasion when I am inquiring. Mmm. Fear is an emotion that I feel in my body. If I allow it to flow through my body it disippates. My body feels fear sometimes when it feels it will be obliterated. Such as yesterday when a car crashed into the back of my car. That fear was from the limbic system, automatic and primal, I felt it electrically on my skin and in my body like fire. My eyes got big and round.
My mind also feels fear when I think I am going to be oblitered. When my ego thinks it will not be able to play its games. I feel that fear more in my chest area. Its a way of retreating instead of opening. Its a closing off of all possibilities. Its the opposite of love. My sense of self needs to be protected. Thats why I want to inquire into the self. What am I protecting. I am going to inquire further into this and sit with this tonight.
WOW. This is Great stuff!!! GOOD tracking of fear!! If you can continue to do this, we will not be sidelined by fear.
Who experienced what exactly? - my body experienced some sensations. "I" was not present.
Who 'owns' your body? Who experiences body's sensations?
And who/what watches the watcher? - Good question and one that I cannot answer yet. Putting it on my inquiry list.
Excellent. There will be more before we are done!
Along with the question of where do "I" go when I am asleep.
This is a very important question!! So often we are convinced that there is some "I" that is responsible for living life, for making decisions, for keeping us on track. Yet there is no "I" to be found when dreaming. So who is 'in charge' when we are asleep?? GREAT question!!
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:03 pm

Who experiences body's sensations? I believe I do. Such a simple question and so hard to answer. If there is no self does that mean I am making up my physical body? I think my body exisists on this physical plane even when I am not present/sleeping/knocked out etc. When the energy in this body leaves the physical part is left. At least that is my observation of others dying. So I am going for body is real.
When this body feels hunger who feeds it? Does it feed itself? Does it go to the supermarket by itself and select items and load them in a cart and pay for them and take them back to its refrigerator? Can you help me with this?

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby nonaparry » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 pm

Who experiences body's sensations? I believe I do. Such a simple question and so hard to answer.
Where is the "I" that experiences body's sensations located?
Close your eyes, find the "I", and point to it with your finger. Open your eyes and tell me, to what is your finger pointing? What exactly do you SEE?
If there is no self does that mean I am making up my physical body?
Here you have an assumption that self = physical body, and maybe an assumption that no self means something disappears.
LOOK with your eyes at your physical body. Chest rising and falling as breathing happens, fingers moving at the ends of hands as typing happens. Proprioceptive senses keep reporting sensation to the brain: support of chair, feel of keyboard, temperature of surrounding air. Body certainly fits the definition of Real that we use here: "Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it".

When you are not thinking about the computer or the desk, they are still there. They do not disappear when the thought ends.
On the other hand, Tinkerbell and Batman are not real. When you stop thinking of them, they do not remain. They are fictional characters in a story.
I think my body exists on this physical plane even when I am not present/sleeping/knocked out etc. When the energy in this body leaves the physical part is left. At least that is my observation of others dying. So I am going for body is real.
We think so too. It would be foolish to deny the reality of something that is clearly real in our direct experience.

However, i would like to point out that physical sensation does not guarantee the object sensed is real.

Do this little exercise—close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, shape, temperature, texture of the skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Got it?
Now open your eyes.
What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable?
You did sense the melon; sense of weight, texture, scent—these are all real. You really did sense them. Yet the watermelon is imaginary; it lives only in your thought.

Just like self.
When this body feels hunger who feeds it? Does it feed itself? Does it go to the supermarket by itself and select items and load them in a cart and pay for them and take them back to its refrigerator?
You can answer this from experience.
When the body feels hunger, doesn't it feed itself? It puts food in a bowl and conveys the food from bowl to mouth, feeding itself.
Doesn't body go to the market by itself? Who would go with it??
i watch this body in the market, hands reaching for items, putting them in the cart; body pushes cart to checkout and hands reach for wallet, hands across a piece of plastic, receives a receipt; body pushes cart out to parking lot and either loads groceries into a car or gets on a bus or in a taxi. What is the problem with this?

None of these activities requires a Doer, an overseer, a self! There is no one driving this body. There is no Little Man in control. Body simply is part of Life life-ing. There is no separate experience; it is all one gigantic happening.
LOOK! Watch with your eyes when you go to the market. Who/what is doing the shopping? Check it!
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:35 am

Ah yes, thanks Nona, I see that I am attaching self to physical body. How amazing to see that so clearly all of a sudden. Something just clicked when I read that. I have been worried that I would lose something if I gave up attachment to self. In this now I can see how attached I am. Make me smile. When I point to "I" it is to my head I am pointing. Mind is what experiences the physical sensations.

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:49 am

I spent some hours last night listening to a dharma talk by Guy Armstrong ( from the site dharma seed) about how we get our idea of self from taking a thought and believing it. He used the example of his own fear. When he practiced meditation fear arose. So it became a belief that fear would arise. Katie as channeled by a Buddhist practitioner. It was especially poignant because of the Work I am doing here on LU and helped me a lot.
I am writing this now because of the realization belief in the self is exactly what he was talking about. An idea taken and a put into play until it becomes a belief.

User avatar
nonaparry
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby nonaparry » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:10 am

I see that I am attaching self to physical body.
This is a common mistake. Body is not self. 'Self' is a collection of thoughts; a story that Janet's parents and family started and that Janet contributed to after she became initiated into the cult of self. The fictional character "Janet" was invented by your parents and established before you were 3 years old. (They thought it was real, too). That's when you heard, LEARNED, that there was a person called Janet who was responsible for some of her experiences. You learned to see this character as real, communicate as if she were real (use personal pronoun I), and a million stories were created around this character.
I have been worried that I would lose something if I gave up attachment to self.
Nothing gets destroyed; only seen for what it is—a fiction. 'You' will not disappear. 'You' never were in the first place! Existence exists and always has and always will. It’s only now and all exists.
The only thing that does not is “you”, the label, the imaginary ownership
When I point to "I" it is to my head I am pointing. Mind is what experiences the physical sensations.
So here are two assumptions: "I" is located in my head, and "mind" is what experiences sensations, and it is in my head too!

When you are pointing to head, and you LOOK at what you are pointing to, do you notice you don't SEE anything? I asked you to report exactly what you SEE, but instead you reported you are pointing at your head. Tell me, do you SEE your head? Is there anything there in your vision?? Or are you making still another unquestioned assumption?

If there is no head to be SEEN, is there a mind inside the invisible head that experiences sensations??
belief in the self is exactly what he was talking about. An idea taken and a put into play until it becomes a belief.
Yes. There is a Thought of a separate self which comes to be believed in. It is not true, however. We can see this in FACT.
Thoughts are real; we really have them; we really experience them. But the content of a thought is purely imaginary. For example, think of a cup. You are really thinking, but the image of the cup in your thought is wholly imaginary. This is how thought works; the thought itself is real; its content is not real.

i look forward to your reply!
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:48 pm

You say thoughts are real, we really have them, we experience them. So I wonder who it is that experiences them. If not self who or what is there to notice thought and to experience feeling?

User avatar
jas
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Re: Newxomers welcome to begin here!

Postby jas » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:58 pm

This has got me tied up in knots. So trying to make it simpler so I can not get bogged down in looping the same thinking over and over. Sorry if it is repetitive but like the Katie work sometimes I just don't get it until I do. I have to disagree with the idea with who feeds the body when it is hungry is the body. The mechanics of eating are bodily. Some instinctual - such as breastfeeding and some taught -eating with an instrument. But the mechanism of getting the food is not the body just life ing. The body doesn't know to prepare soil and plant seeds to grow carrots. That is learned behavour. When spring time comes there is lot of planting that is not automatic hand to mouth activity. The body doesn't know how to drive a car.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest