Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:59 pm

...Our baby's sleep pattern has been different and I've had some trauma stuff triggered. Been using any available time for resting.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Hannah B-T » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:56 am

ok thanks for letting me know x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:29 pm

I'm back :)

Had a rough go through the weekend with big PTSD getting triggered last week and then health issues. I'm happy to say things are moving again!

When I imagine injury or threat occurring to any of these, I feel anger and sadness, but there is no true sense of possession or loss. It is painful to imagine, but not ultimately disturbing like it was before.
I'm not quite clear on this one, could you elaborate a bit more.
Have a go at describing to me how possession 'works' from what is experienced now.
What is it made of?
What posseses/own?

Possession is just a concept. There is no "me" who can claim anything as "mine".

As for the "not ultimately disturbing" comment I made, I can't say that felt true for me for several days this past week! It feels true again now, but I definitely lost sight of something there in the midst of the PTSD reaction.
Moving on to the body in particular, is there currently a strong experience of 'my body'?
Is there a sense of a self located in a particular place in the body? like if I asked you right now to take your index finger and point to a place that feels most like you, where does the finger go (don't over think this one!)
Looking closer, where is that response coming from?
I do not have a strong experience of "my body". Over the weekend having severe fatigue and feeling depressed, there was anger and fear, but I don''t know if I had a strong sense of "my body". I felt 'lost' in the fog much of the time and didn't have the capacity to 'look' very often.

The first place my hand goes is to my heart and then I see that there is no "me" here. The response of pointing to my heart is another action without anyone acting.

Thanks,
Brian

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:39 pm

Hi Brian,

Thank you for letting me know what is going on, I have been struggling with severe anxiety again over the last week so I feel you! Many find that after the fixed self illusion starts to be seen through, alot of emotional issues can become more intense for a while, almost as if the 'selfing' mechanisms that were keeping them ignored/in check have dropped away and every old reaction is now free to reek havoc at times.

Do PM me if there are aspects of that side of things you would rather discuss more privately.
Possession is just a concept
Nice.
But now seeing that, if someone wereto ask you to give them your wallet right now, would there be a reaction in the body as well?
(I sometimes do this as a joke in face to face meetings 'oh great, so now you've seen through posession, can I have your wallet?' It tends to be quite fun ;)
Over the weekend having severe fatigue and feeling depressed, there was anger and fear,
Ok, but did it honestly feel like there was someone being fatigued, depressed, angry and fearful, separate to the raw experience of that? (note- it's ok if the answer was yes!)

Give me a little paragraph on what the raw experience of the body is right now, just sensations.
The first place my hand goes is to my heart and then I see that there is no "me" here.
Are there particular sensations in the heart area that feel more personal, more 'me'?

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:51 pm

But now seeing that, if someone were to ask you to give them your wallet right now, would there be a reaction in the body as well?
(I sometimes do this as a joke in face to face meetings 'oh great, so now you've seen through posession, can I have your wallet?' It tends to be quite fun ;)
Yes, there is a reaction! I feel my shoulders tense and an urge to hold onto my wallet! I see that this is a reaction and when I look there is no one there having the reaction, but the reaction is quite real! Is there more to see for this stage of things? I am aware of the buddhist fetters (4 & 5) of desire and ill will and also that there is 'selfing' on more and more subtle layers until the 8th fetter is broken.

Ok, but did it honestly feel like there was someone being fatigued, depressed, angry and fearful, separate to the raw experience of that? (note- it's ok if the answer was yes!)

Give me a little paragraph on what the raw experience of the body is right now, just sensations.
I don't remember whether or not I felt that there was 'someone' having those feelings. I remember having thoughts like, "This sucks!" and "How long will I feel this way!", etc. I recognized that these were thoughts and feelings, but did not have the capacity to look deeper.

Right now, my raw experience is: chilly toes, tension in my left shoulder, pressure where my butt contacts the chair, sound of refrigerator and baby monitor, light of computer monitor and glare from window, watching words appear as my hands type, etc...

Are there particular sensations in the heart area that feel more personal, more 'me'?

No.

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Hi Hannah,

A couple things to add to my last post...
Thank you for letting me know what is going on, I have been struggling with severe anxiety again over the last week so I feel you! Many find that after the fixed self illusion starts to be seen through, alot of emotional issues can become more intense for a while, almost as if the 'selfing' mechanisms that were keeping them ignored/in check have dropped away and every old reaction is now free to reek havoc at times.

Do PM me if there are aspects of that side of things you would rather discuss more privately.

Thank you! Good to hear this is a common experience! I'll let you know if there's anything I'd like to talk about through PM.

Are there particular sensations in the heart area that feel more personal, more 'me'?

I'll answer this one again. I was not taking time to sit with it...Yes, there is a sort of fluttering, warm sensation that feels more personal, more 'me'. It feels very joyful. I see that there is a grabbing for it or wanting it to continue....and see that it is not 'my' feeling, or 'my' sensation.

One last thing I'd like to share...I'm aware that I have been feeling impatient with this process. I want to move on to working on fetters 4 & 5. I feel frustrated and have doubt that finishing this process will help. I don't want to 'flush' things out more!

...that feels good to say! O.K. So I'm having these feelings, thoughts, emotions, and beliefs. I see that there is some sort of holding onto these things. And a belief in a 'me' who has decided that I'm ready to move on. A big 'I want!'. And some kind of 'hiding', not wanting to be completely honest with you or 'myself'.

I'll leave it here for now.

Thanks!
Brian

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:44 pm

Yes, there is a reaction! I feel my shoulders tense and an urge to hold onto my wallet! I see that this is a reaction and when I look there is no one there having the reaction, but the reaction is quite real!
The reason I asked this was because it's possible to 'glean over' these reactions and that I think would be a mistake. These body tensions are a whole other world to explore of how some thing 'seem' more real than others.
I remember having thoughts like, "This sucks!" and "How long will I feel this way!", etc. I recognized that these were thoughts and feelings, but did not have the capacity to look deeper.
That's ok, it sounds pretty intense. But whenever emotions arise at the moment take a fresh look at if it is being assumed that there is a separate self 'having these emotions'.

A question I have found extremely helpful as well is, especially with anxiety type moments is
'what here needs protecting? From what?'

See what comes up as a gut reaction to that.
Yes, there is a sort of fluttering, warm sensation that feels more personal, more 'me'. It feels very joyful. I see that there is a grabbing for it or wanting it to continue....and see that it is not 'my' feeling, or 'my' sensation.
You are the first client I've had whose 'personal' sensations are pleasant! Interesting.
Yes, it doesnt even make logical sense does it, if that sensation is you then what is that other I wanting/grabbing for it!?
One last thing I'd like to share...I'm aware that I have been feeling impatient with this process. I want to move on to working on fetters 4 & 5. I feel frustrated and have doubt that finishing this process will help. I don't want to 'flush' things out more!

...that feels good to say! O.K. So I'm having these feelings, thoughts, emotions, and beliefs. I see that there is some sort of holding onto these things. And a belief in a 'me' who has decided that I'm ready to move on. A big 'I want!'. And some kind of 'hiding', not wanting to be completely honest with you or 'myself'.
I love your honesty in not wanting to be honest :)

Look for the self that is able to hold on to feelings thought, emotions and beleifs.
That is apparently OWNING them.
Describe that self to me.
Describe to me exactly how it does that?

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:13 pm

Hi Hannah,

Something is beginning to relax around "I want to move on now". Seems that one aspect of this reaction is boredom. I've also found a good, simple question to ask myself coming out of your last post, especially this part

That's ok, it sounds pretty intense. But whenever emotions arise at the moment take a fresh look at if it is being assumed that there is a separate self 'having these emotions'.

A question I have found extremely helpful as well is, especially with anxiety type moments is
'what here needs protecting? From what?'

See what comes up as a gut reaction to that.
The question for myself is, "Is there a separate self here?"

The next time I have more intense emotions coming up I'll start with this and then try your suggestion of "What here needs protecting?".

You are the first client I've had whose 'personal' sensations are pleasant! Interesting.
Yes, it doesnt even make logical sense does it, if that sensation is you then what is that other I wanting/grabbing for it!?
Yes, the sensation is not me. It's very pleasant and there is a "I want more of this" and "I hope this feeling continues", but there is no 'me' doing the wanting or hoping. It has been very helpful to learn that seeing through a belief in a separate self does NOT mean that anything necessarily changes regarding wanting or not wanting!

I love your honesty in not wanting to be honest :)

Look for the self that is able to hold on to feelings thought, emotions and beleifs.
That is apparently OWNING them.
Describe that self to me.
Describe to me exactly how it does that?


Again, I expected these things ("feelings, thoughts, emotions, and beliefs"; "I WANT to move on!") to change.
I have these unpleasant reactions...and I see there is no separate, personal "I" who is having them.

:)
B.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:14 pm

I'm happy to take this thread back the other guides now, but it might be helpful to give an up to date freh reponse to the standaard questions. Would that be ok?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:02 pm

Hi Hannah,

Yes, I'll answer the questions again.

Thanks,
Brian

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:11 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)


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