Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

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Jazul24
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Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:01 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The 'self' is a mental construct which we have learned to associate with who we are. In reality, there is no fixed, permanent self and there has never been one. Our feelings, thoughts, perceptions, etc. arise and disappear in the basic space of awareness.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a guide to help me fully see through the illusion of a self which I still hold on to. I'd prefer someone who is familiar with Reggie Ray's teachings on somatic meditation and with buddhist teachings.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to have regular contact with someone who can ask me questions and respond to me in a straightforward, compassionate way which helps me see where I am holding onto a fixed, permanent self. I hope my guide will be able to identify where I am getting stuck and lead me into a deeper experience of 'no self'.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced Buddhism for over 20 years and was an ordained into Triratna Buddhist Community. I practiced with Balanced View for a few years and have been practicing Reggie Ray's Pure Awarness teachings and practices.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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Xain
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Xain » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:15 am

Hi Jazul24

Welcome to LU - My name is Xain, and I am a guide here.
I am looking for a guide to help me fully see through the illusion of a self which I still hold on to. I'd prefer someone who is familiar with Reggie Ray's teachings on somatic meditation and with buddhist teachings.
Sounds like you are coming from the right place.
I am some-what familiar with the Somatic stuff, and very clued up on the Buddhist teachings including breaking / abandoning the ten fetters. Are you familiar with this? Also the concept of 'stream entry'?
I expect to have regular contact with someone who can ask me questions and respond to me in a straightforward, compassionate way which helps me see where I am holding onto a fixed, permanent self. I hope my guide will be able to identify where I am getting stuck and lead me into a deeper experience of 'no self'.
Sounds good.
The only thing I would add is that when you say 'deeper experience of 'no self', I need to say that experience will not change, and 'no self' isn't an experience or state, either temporarily or permanently.
RIGHT NOW there is no inherent self - All that needs to be done is to realise that - To realise that all along it has been an illusion caused 'wrong thinking' and misperceptions.
I have practiced Buddhism for over 20 years and was an ordained into Triratna Buddhist Community. I practiced with Balanced View for a few years and have been practicing Reggie Ray's Pure Awarness teachings and practices.
Great! Although I am not a Buddhist, I have many Triratna Buddhist friends, some ordained and some not - Last month I was on a Buddhist retreat in Wales specifically looking into Emptiness and the Heart Sutra.

Other than realising 'no self', do you have any other expectations? Do you have any beliefs / ideas of 'what life will be like afterwards' or 'what I am expecting to happen'?
Indeed, do you have any fears or concerns about this guidance or the realisation?

Since we've not started yet, please feel free to ask me any questions that you may have on your mind about this guidance, or anything else you feel may be relevant that you would like addressing before we begin.

I look forward to your reply
Xain ♥

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:26 pm

Hi Xain,

Thank you for guiding me. I'm glad to hear of your experience with somatic meditation, buddhism and Triratna. Yes, I am familiar with the ten fetters and stream entry. A number of my friends are involved with breaking the ten fetters and I see LU as the beginning of that process for me, too.

[/quote]
The only thing I would add is that when you say 'deeper experience of 'no self', I need to say that experience will not change, and 'no self' isn't an experience or state, either temporarily or permanently.
RIGHT NOW there is no inherent self - All that needs to be done is to realise that - To realise that all along it has been an illusion caused 'wrong thinking' and misperceptions.

(not sure if I got the quote thing right) Thanks for that. I keep forgetting that the realization/experience is always RIGHT NOW. I have this habit of searching when it seems that what I really need to do is just let it be...to just relax into it.
Other than realising 'no self', do you have any other expectations? Do you have any beliefs / ideas of 'what life will be like afterwards' or 'what I am expecting to happen'?
Indeed, do you have any fears or concerns about this guidance or the realisation?

YES! I do have expectations, beliefs, fears and concerns. Here's my initial response...
I expect things to be easier and different, to have less suffering. I'm afraid of getting too much into my head and not listening to my need to go at my own pace.
Since we've not started yet, please feel free to ask me any questions that you may have on your mind about this guidance, or anything else you feel may be relevant that you would like addressing before we begin.

That's it for now.

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:37 am

...Also, I have hope that it won't take long and fear that it will, or that I will never see through the illusion of a self. I also fear that it is not the right time to be doing this. I have hope that I will feel less anxiety and be able to relax no matter what happens. Or maybe that won't really happen until I get to some of the later fetters?
I said earlier that I want to go at my own pace. For me this means listening to my body and letting my body be my guide (as much as I have access to that).

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Tue May 02, 2017 2:31 pm

Hi Xain,
I've been waiting for a reply and wondering when you will be back?
Thanks,
Brian

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Xain
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Xain » Mon May 08, 2017 7:40 am

Hi Jazul24

I am sorry I haven't responded for a while - You seem to have 'dropped off my map' (the system doesn't subscribe me to the threads automatically).
I've subscribed now, so I should be able to reply constantly for you.
A number of my friends are involved with breaking the ten fetters and I see LU as the beginning of that process for me, too.
Good - And yes, you are right.
You are probably aware then that this guidance breaks the first fetter (wrong view of self).
As a handy off-shoot, it also breaks the next two fetters which are doubt about the Dharma (Buddhist teachings) and also attachment to rites and rituals (as a means for self improvement).
I keep forgetting that the realization/experience is always RIGHT NOW.
It's not a problem - In fact, it's only really clear when you realise it.

About Expectations, you said:
I expect things to be easier and different, to have less suffering. I'm afraid of getting too much into my head and not listening to my need to go at my own pace.
I understand.
Don't worry - I will take things one step at a time (in fact as a guide, I have a tendency to do this anyway).

Less suffering? I must tell you that a permanent cessation to suffering is not likely to happen.
You will see that from the ten fetter model that the next two in the list (4th and 5th) are 'Desire' and 'Ill-will'. These next two fetters deal with prolonged mental suffering.
HOWEVER, there may be an ease to life (or other pleasant things) experienced after realising 'no inherent self' as pleasant by-products of the realisation. They may last, or they may not. Further work may be needed, and I need to be honest with you and for you to be realistic about what you can achieve here.
Certainly realising 'no inherent self' is a BIG realisation (maybe THE big one), but further work will be needed if your goal is for a complete cessation of suffering.

For this guidance, I would like you to focus on only one goal and that is for you to realise 100% clearly that there is no 'real I', no inherent self. Try to put other things aside for now. Do not have expectations about 'what it might be like' from what you've read or heard from others. Each realisation is unique.
That's it for now.
Ok, some pointers before we begin:

> Be completely honest with me, and yourself.
> Most of the guidance I will ask you what you can FIND, not what you THINK might be going on.
If you find yourself analysing or thinking what the correct answer is, you are not answering from what you can find.
> The more determined you are to see this through, the more likely you are to achieve it.
> Put aside all non-dual beliefs, spiritual, religious, scientific and medical knowledge. Approach this whole thing as simply as possible from basic principles.
> Please try to reply at least once per day - This maintains a momentum in the guiding which is important. If you know you won't be able to reply for a few days, just let me know beforehand - It's ok.

Oh . . . I see your attempt with the QUOTE feature - A guide for that process is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
In short, you highlight the section of text that I have written that you want to quote (drag across it with the mouse pointer), and then you click the little speech-mark button found at the top-right of the block of text.

Do you have a different preferred name I can call you in the guidance, or will Jazul be OK?
It's not a problem either way. Indeed, it's perfectly fine not to use your real name if you don't wish to.

Ready to start?

Xain ♥

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Mon May 08, 2017 2:45 pm

Be completely honest with me, and yourself.
> Most of the guidance I will ask you what you can FIND, not what you THINK might be going on.
If you find yourself analysing or thinking what the correct answer is, you are not answering from what you can find.
> The more determined you are to see this through, the more likely you are to achieve it.
> Put aside all non-dual beliefs, spiritual, religious, scientific and medical knowledge. Approach this whole thing as simply as possible from basic principles.
> Please try to reply at least once per day - This maintains a momentum in the guiding which is important. If you know you won't be able to reply for a few days, just let me know beforehand - It's ok.
Oh, good! I'm glad this is working out now!

I will do my best to be completely honest.
...and keep it to what I FIND.
I am determined to 'do' this. I've been wanting this for many years.
Putting aside ideas and concepts and beliefs May be a challenge.
I will do my best to keep up the momentum and reply at least once per day...this will be dependent on my health and family responsibilities.

Please call me Brian.
Thank you!
Let's go!

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Xain
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Xain » Mon May 08, 2017 3:29 pm

Ok, Brian

Let's begin by getting established what we are referring to when talk about 'I' or 'myself'.

As mentioned in the last reply (and I won't harp on about this) but the guidance isn't about fancy non-dual beliefs or spiritual stuff - This is very much 'grass roots' level - A really simple basic level of who or what you believe you are.

For example, do you truly believe that right now you are a person looking at a screen and reading words off it?
As simple as that. No fancy stuff. Does that ring true for you?

Perhaps 'I' refers to the body in your current beliefs - The body is doing the seeing . . . the body is hearing sounds around it . . . the body is feeling the chair or seat that it is sat in. The body performs the sensing of the outside world.
(Hence we get 'I am seeing', 'I am feeling, I am experiencing the outside world')
Perhaps 'I' refers to a controller over the body. 'I move my arms', 'I move my hands when typing'.
Perhaps 'I' chooses and decides - 'I chose to begin guidance at LU', 'I will be deciding what to type in a reply to you'.
Perhaps 'I' thinks and experiences those thoughts - 'I am thinking what to say', 'I had an idea yesterday', 'Right now I am seeing an object in my imagination'.

Those are a few pointers which I believe most people would agree with. Maybe they ring true for you?
What do you think? Feel free to elaborate on any aspect if you need to.

Xain ♥

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:50 pm

For example, do you truly believe that right now you are a person looking at a screen and reading words off it?
As simple as that. No fancy stuff. Does that ring true for you?
When I read this the answer was "no, I don't really believe I am an individual, separate self looking and reading"

,
Perhaps 'I' refers to the body in your current beliefs - The body is doing the seeing . . . the body is hearing sounds around it . . . the body is feeling the chair or seat that it is sat in. The body performs the sensing of the outside world.
For me, my "I" is my head, or is in my head. I do identify with my body at times, but it is more as an extension of my head. My body is ultimately mysterious, perhaps even dangerous in relation to my head.
Perhaps 'I' refers to a controller over the body. 'I move my arms', 'I move my hands when typing'.
Perhaps 'I' chooses and decides - 'I chose to begin guidance at LU', 'I will be deciding what to type in a reply to you'.
Yep. "I" as controller, etc.

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Xain
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Xain » Mon May 08, 2017 5:10 pm

When I read this the answer was "no, I don't really believe I am an individual, separate self looking and reading"
Ok, what do you believe IS doing this then (if not a body or a person)?
Whatever you suggest, can you tell me how it is clear for you that the answer you have given is indeed true.
For me, my "I" is my head, or is in my head. I do identify with my body at times, but it is more as an extension of my head. My body is ultimately mysterious, perhaps even dangerous in relation to my head.
But 'the head' is a separate individual 'thing' is it not?
You suggested above that you do not believe that there IS an individual thing looking and reading.

Why is your body 'dangerous'? That seems an unusual thing to say.
Yep. "I" as controller, etc.
OK, an 'I' controlling and choosing.
What IS that? What do you believe that the word 'I' refers to here that is choosing and controlling?

Xain ♥

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Mon May 08, 2017 9:14 pm

O.K. Something is shifting...
, what do you believe IS doing this then (if not a body or a person)?
I don't know what to call it. It really has no name. I have used the words awareness, great expanse, non-local awareness, etc. but now it really is clear that these are fingers pointing to the moon.

.
can you tell me how it is clear
I don't understand how it is clear, it just is sometimes and other times it's not.
...also I noticed that a lot of preconceptions are getting in my way. Thoughts about how I 'should' feel or experience life when I see through a fixed self. Like I shouldn't feel anxious anymore, or angry or desirous. And I should realize that reality is non-dual. Seems I'm putting all the ten fetters in the first one.
But 'the head' is a separate individual 'thing' is it not?
You suggested above that you do not believe that there IS an individual thing looking and reading
Yeah, the realization comes and goes.
Why is your body 'dangerous'? That seems an unusual thing to say
I was raised Catholic.
OK, an 'I' controlling and choosing.
What IS that? What do you believe that the word 'I' refers to here that is choosing and controlling?
I may have to sit with this a bit longer...

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Xain
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Xain » Tue May 09, 2017 9:12 am

I don't know what to call it. It really has no name. I have used the words awareness, great expanse, non-local awareness, etc. but now it really is clear that these are fingers pointing to the moon.
So it's clear that there isn't a separate self or body here right now seeing and reading.
Good.
What about the other senses?
I don't understand how it is clear, it just is sometimes and other times it's not.
The thing is, I need a definite basis to continue forward. I need you to be clear on aspects that you tell me otherwise I can't guide you.
I'm not looking for what you've been told by non-dual teachers, or what you've picked up from Buddhism etc
I want to know what is clear for you right now in simple terms.
So sometimes it's clear that there is no separate person seeing and something it isn't?
Is that right?

At what stages is it clear that there is no separate person reading text on a screen?
Thoughts about how I 'should' feel or experience life when I see through a fixed self.
Right now this moment there is no fixed self.

These thoughts, are they appearing to 'you'?
If so, what is the 'you' that the thoughts appear to?
Why is your body 'dangerous'? That seems an unusual thing to say.

I was raised Catholic.
Nothing more needs to be said :-)

Choosing and controlling.
I may have to sit with this a bit longer...
Well do you believe that you have a free choice in what to reply to this message?
Will you have control over the fingers and arms when typing it?

Xain ♥

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Jazul24
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Jazul24 » Thu May 11, 2017 4:43 am

What about the other senses?
Seeing is the most accessible for me, but for the last couple days I've been tuning into the other senses and have been experiencing the openness of these at times.
So sometimes it's clear that there is no separate person seeing and something it isn't?
Is that right?
Yes, sometimes it is clear and sometimes it's not.
At what stages is it clear that there is no separate person reading text on a screen?
I don't understand what you mean by 'stages'. Please say more.
Right now this moment there is no fixed self.

These thoughts, are they appearing to 'you'?
If so, what is the 'you' that the thoughts appear to?
That helps...I have been experiencing much more loosening around the thoughts and much of that stuff has dropped away.

.
Well do you believe that you have a free choice in what to reply to this message?
Will you have control over the fingers and arms when typing it?
Wow. That hit me and had a sort of 'biting' quality...and fear. I see more now how it is not my ego that is in control. I am now feeling a letting go of something...and more relaxed and easy.

The thing about control is still raging at times. My ego really wants to make things happen.

So now I'm wondering about terminology. As I've said, I've been working with Reggie Ray's somatic mediation practices. I like how he describes the difference between the left brain/ego and the right brain/soma/unconscious/primordial awake body. What do you think about this way of describing?

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Xain
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Xain » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:49 pm

Hi Jazul

Lovely to Skype with you - I will hand you over to Hannah to continue with the questions for you.

All the best
Xain ♥

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Grateful for this opportunity to get some help

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:05 am

Hi Jazul my name is Hannah and as Xain is taking a break from guiding now I will be happy to take over. He has explained to me you recently had a skype session after which you feel confident the illusion has been seen through? Is that still so?

Any doubts or confusion that has some up in the last few days that it would be useful to run through? Or do you want to get straight into the standard questions?

Thanks
Hannah
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)


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