Helena - Ingen

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:35 am

Back!
With "character" I meant something like a character in a book or film, like Batman. Not character traits. Sorry for the confusion. Character traits - emotions and thought patterns - are real. But do they belong to a self? We are going to talk about thoughts later
Again, no idea how to figure out an answer this question. I just simply do not understand the question, I do not understand what a self is supposed to refer to so I can figure out if something could belong to it. Any time I have come across any question referring to the self I end up feeling extremely confused and extremely frustrated because the question might as well be written in another language. I just do not get it.
Did you read my story about the baby and Helena, who got the parent's attention? Can you relate to it?
I guess so, I mean I can't really say, I don't have the memory capacity to know how this whole process came about or see how things could be any other way. I'm just not really sure what specific belief was enforced. I mean the reality is as an entity, I did things, I enacted things, and they were interpreted as right/wrong/whatever. What part of that is a belief in something imaginary?
Your parents talked to a Helena who seemed to be someplace behind you
I'm not sure I've ever experienced this or understand what this means. How can a me be someplace behind me? I really don't get it.
Did you do the lemon-exercise?
Yes, and I'm surprised by how vividly imagination can create sensations from just reading those words. I can remember taste, smell, touch, very intensely, even though nothing is physically there.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:48 pm

I mean the reality is as an entity, I did things, I enacted things, and they were interpreted as right/wrong/whatever. What part of that is a belief in something imaginary?
That there is an entity that did things. Or is doing things now. This entity is imaginary.

Reality looks like like you saw in the exercises you did in the beginning. Do you experience an entity when doing the feeling - hearing - seeing exercises?

When you look around: Are you looking out of two holes in your head, or are sights "just there", effortlessly. There is no entity doing seeing. And no entity deciding where attention is going to go next.

When you are doing things: Watch how many of them you have decided to do. If you look really closely at you thoughts, you will see that the thought "I did this" always comes after the deed. Or, when thinking about an apple, the thought "I am thinking " is coming after the apple thought.

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:42 pm

That there is an entity that did things. Or is doing things now. This entity is imaginary.
I don't really understand this, it's getting really abstract. How am I imaginary? How is my concrete, solid body imaginary? How are the actions that are done in real time and space imaginary?
Reality looks like like you saw in the exercises you did in the beginning. Do you experience an entity when doing the feeling - hearing - seeing exercises?
I experience a lack of control and a lack of boundedness. But I also experience an affirmation of existence in a physical sense. That whole experience, the lack of boundedness, the just BEING, its an experience of being alive and of being HERE. I am physically HERE. I just don't understand how I am not physically here.
When you look around: Are you looking out of two holes in your head, or are sights "just there", effortlessly. There is no entity doing seeing. And no entity deciding where attention is going to go next
Right, I definitely experience things just being there, I experience not being in control but not always. I can produce a thought in my head that says "look there" and then attention is directed there, how is that not a decision?
When you are doing things: Watch how many of them you have decided to do. If you look really closely at you thoughts, you will see that the thought "I did this" always comes after the deed. Or, when thinking about an apple, the thought "I am thinking " is coming after the apple thought.
99% of the time, yes, it comes afterwards. But what about situations like I mentioned above?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult but I keep feeling so confused and frustrated. I feel like I am just not understanding and its making me feel I'm running around in circles.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:08 am

Right, I definitely experience things just being there, I experience not being in control but not always. I can produce a thought in my head that says "look there" and then attention is directed there, how is that not a decision?
How do you produce a thought in your head that says "look there?"

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:26 am

How do you produce a thought in your head that says "look there?"
Okay, I don't, it just comes up. Even if I think "oh I'm going to produce a thought that says 'look there,'" that thought is also spontaneous. So the spontaneity, the lack of control, the just doing/being/existing, is there on multiple levels, not just in the act of "seeing" itself.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:59 am

What I was trying to tell you with the lemon exercise: YOU is something you believe to be real, (like mostly everybody else does), as the lemon. There is no lemon, there never was.
How are the actions that are done in real time and space imaginary?
Actions happen by themselves.
I am physically HERE. I just don't understand how I am not physically here.
The body is real. Life is happening by itself. Watch it, it takes care of everything by itself.

Tell me how you experience YOU as an entity.

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:45 am

Mostly in thoughts. Mostly it's in thoughts about the way I'm feeling, the things I'm doing with my life, success/failure. I think A LOT and that's how I experience a "me," as someone who has these thoughts and therefore a "unique" perspective. Not unique in the sense of special but unique in the sense of only I am experiencing things in this way. Sometimes "me" is a physical thing as well, which ends up being really confusing in this forum because when I hear a statement like "there is no you" it doesn't make 100% sense. If something is PHYSICALLY there then it exists at some level.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:30 am

Helena, why are you doing this dialogue?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:53 pm

to be able to exist in the present and not in the past or future. I'd like to stop feeling like the world ("my" world) is chaotically spiralling into chaos. I'd like to feel the sense of oneness people desribe because I don't feel like the way I perceive the world right now is reality.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:14 pm

I'd like to stop feeling like the world ("my" world) is chaotically spiralling into chaos.
Do you really feel like this? I don't think seeing through the illusion of self helps with this condition. Sounds scary. Is that all the time?
I'd like to feel the sense of oneness people desribe because I don't feel like the way I perceive the world right now is reality.
Do the exercises from the beginning again.

Feel what is there in direct experience. Withought thought, there are no boundaries.
Hear the sounds. Withought thought, there are only sounds, no "hearer".
See what is around you. Withought thought, sights are just there. Nobody doing seeing.

That is the sense of oneness. There is not more to it, it is very ordinary.

You just have to look.

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:37 pm

I think I am exaggerating a bit =) I basically feel like everything I am doing is for self-ish reasons and therefore, my world is never going to be a satisfying one. That's where all the anxiety and feelings of chaos come from.

I am trying to do the exercises every day but I don't always feel that sense of oneness and if I do, it doesn't last very long. I can't see it translating into the anxious thoughts I have about where my life is going and all these decisions I have to make. How can the self not be there for those decisions?

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:41 am

Don't try to feel oneness. Read the thread again. These exercises should help you to find out what direct experience is vs. thoughts about it. Life is happening in direct experience ONLY.
the anxious thoughts I have about where my life is going and all these decisions I have to make.
How do you make the decision to scratch your head, to eat a sandwich, to smile at someone? Or do those things just happen, and you label them afterwards with "I decided to do that?"?
How can the self not be there for those decisions?
The self is like the imaginary lemon in your pocket. Thoughts only. Life does decisions. YOU are like a little girl on a carousel, thinking it has to steer the toy car it is sitting in.

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:30 am

I will go back and read again and do the exercises over. Tonight I am just too exhausted.
How do you make the decision to scratch your head, to eat a sandwich, to smile at someone? Or do those things just happen, and you label them afterwards with "I decided to do that?"?
Well those definitely are labeled after they occur. I can see how that applies for big life decisions as well but only after the decision is made. What about the process of decision-making? Where is all of that coming from?
The self is like the imaginary lemon in your pocket. Thoughts only. Life does decisions. YOU are like a little girl on a carousel, thinking it has to steer the toy car it is sitting in.
But HOW, I just cannot see how this is possible 100% of the time. I could wake up tomorrow and say fuck it, I'm not going to class anymore, screw my research, screw everything. My life's going to take an extremely different trajectory compared to if I stick to what I've been doing for the past 4 years. I'm not saying one path is right or wrong over the other but clearly my decision is impacting how my life is going. Where does that initial thought process to bring about the ultimate decision come from? I'm kind of asking the question rhetorically because I know it's not coming from a "self" but it still feels like "I" am influencing some part of my life. Even if I weren't, what's the point of everything? Why am I putting myself through insane amounts of stress and pressure if it's ultimately not going to matter? I feel like I am coming to a realization of futility and its not feeling good.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:41 pm

Let's start at the end.
I feel like I am coming to a realization of futility and its not feeling good.
Do you want to feel good or do you want to see the truth?
Why am I putting myself through insane amounts of stress and pressure if it's ultimately not going to matter?
Well, this doesn't sound like it feels good. Yes, why do you?
it still feels like "I" am influencing some part of my life. Even if I weren't, what's the point of everything?
Life doesn't need a point. Life is life-ing no matter what thoughts about it come up in the process.
I could wake up tomorrow and say fuck it, I'm not going to class anymore, screw my research, screw everything. My life's going to take an extremely different trajectory compared to if I stick to what I've been doing for the past 4 years. I'm not saying one path is right or wrong over the other but clearly my decision is impacting how my life is going. Where does that initial thought process to bring about the ultimate decision come from?
Your decisions have never been yours. They are the result of an extremely complicated interplay between genes, conditioning, coincidence, ideas you were surrounded by, hormones, and wheather. And more.

You don't decide which preferences to have, do you?

The outcome of your exams and your research is a result of conditions. There is a certain amount of intelligence, resolution and other conditions that result in a certain outcome. It couldn't have been better, and it couldn't have been worse. It is as it is, and cannot be otherwise. You never took a bad decision. You always took the best decision available at the moment, like everybody else does.

It is like when water trickles down a hill. it finds the best trajectory, by itself. Sometimes the water runs faster ("pressured"? "stressed"?) and sometimes slow.

This outlook on life certainly feels better than the assumption of a YOU which is pressing YOURSELF into anxiety attacks because YOU are afraid to make the wrong decisions.While in reality there is anxiety (the bodily symptoms) plus a thought: I am doing something wrong, I am anxious.

----------------

And here comes a caveat: If you suffer from bad anxiety attacks (world spiralling into chaos...), see a therapist, please!!!

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:12 pm

Do you want to feel good or do you want to see the truth?
I guess the truth is always better but I'd like the truth to be a good and positive one =( Even though that might not necessarily be the case.
Well, this doesn't sound like it feels good. Yes, why do you?
Well that's just it, I'm pretty sure I do these things for completely self-ish reasons - prestige, money, "honour." It wasn't always like this but now that it is I don't really understand whether I'm making the "right" decisions. How do I know if I am making a decision and letting life do its thing or if I'm believing in a self that is becoming a hindrance to what can simply BE? I am fine with bad experiences, I just want them to be bad experience with a purpose. Or, maybe not a purpose, but a "it's bad but that's okay" feel. Am I making sense? =S
You don't decide which preferences to have, do you?
Of course not, I can see how decisions are triggered by so many things, so many things beyond control. I definitely agree that:
This outlook on life certainly feels better than the assumption of a YOU which is pressing YOURSELF into anxiety attacks because YOU are afraid to make the wrong decisions.While in reality there is anxiety (the bodily symptoms) plus a thought: I am doing something wrong, I am anxious.
I have been going to therapy for quite some time for anxiety and depression, not necessarily attacks but just very negative thinking. Maybe that's why things have been so difficult to grasp. I feel like I am responsible for my thoughts and that if I could just control them, then the anxiety should go away and the world, my world, can be a happy place. Change behaviour, change thought, change feeling. Or whatever it is. But I think I'm also understanding that it is what it is, that whatever is happening is. I just don't feel any different from how I started out when I first came here. I was expecting SOMETHING to be different, anything, and trying not to have expectations about what that should be. Yet I find everything as it always was and that I'm still trying to control things even though I realize how futile it is.


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