Helena - Ingen

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:10 am

I'm trying to feel an absence but instead, I just notice that I can focus attention on one sound and temporarily ignore others so in that way, it feels like a controlled decision. .
Please, stop "trying to feel an absence"! That is not going to happen. You are not going to feel anything different from what you are feeling now!
I could be in another place listening to different sounds and that whole experience would be completely different. I could even be in the same place with the same sounds going on but I might be doing something else, not paying attention to them.
I asked you how you notice sounds without thinking. How did you reach the above statement?
Well if there weren't me as an entity listening then I would not hear anything. I exist don't I?
This is a sweet question in this context :) Find out. Without thinking - what is there in this moment?
The experience of listening feels like an affirmation of existence.
An affirmation of the existence of sound, or of the existence of a listener?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:33 am

I asked you how you notice sounds without thinking. How did you reach the above statement?
thinking...too much dang thinking...
This is a sweet question in this context :) Find out. Without thinking - what is there in this moment?
breathing, noises, sensations, a whole bunch of things. Things happening in the body, things happening around.
An affirmation of the existence of sound, or of the existence of a listener?
My thinking says "listener" but there's nothing to demonstrate that. The sounds can't prove that I am there. I feel confused only because my brain says one thing but recognizing that the sounds are just sounds is saying something else.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:28 am

Hey, Helena, you're getting it!!

It is not even "too much thinking". Thinking is ok. You just have to learn to differentiate between the actual experience, and the stories about it.

Let's try again, just to be thorough:

With eyes closed, can you detect a boundary between you and the world?

Can you feel a boundary with your skin?
Is there a boundary between you and sound?

Or are sounds and sensations just there, arising in awareness?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:37 am

With eyes closed, can you detect a boundary between you and the world?
Not really, nothing that can be confidently called a boundary. There are things that I THINK mean there's a boundary BUUUUT let's not go there again =)
Can you feel a boundary with your skin?
Not a boundary, no. I can touch things and feel things, but it's not a boundary, just sensation.
Is there a boundary between you and sound?
Not even sure how to conceive of this one or try and feel for it. What I do feel is that sound is occurring around me, is that a boundary? Unsure.
Or are sounds and sensations just there, arising in awareness?
Definitely arising and just being there. The feeling of it being around me, that's a thought, it's a thought to try and describe the experience but it just can't describe the experience. It's not evidence of a boundary, it's just a thought.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:09 am

So can you detect a boundary between you and not-you without thinking?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:42 am

Without thinking, no.

I can't detect one at all. Yet when I'm just sitting around, my world is very much self-oriented. I kind of expected this sense to be gone once I would make a realization like "there's no boundary." I don't feel one at all when I feel physical sensations or listen for sound. There is no boundary at all. But why does the world continue to feel like it's "mine," that experiences are "mine?"

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:05 am

I hope you don't expect a big bang, bliss and fireworks. This is not going to happen. Seeing the illusion of self is just that: Realizing that the boundaries are created by thinking only. A subtle shift in perspective, recognizing thoughts as thoughts instead of regarding them as "facts".

But we are not finished yet.

Imagine to see the world as a brand new baby. Is there a "me" seeing the world, or is there only world?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:03 am

I am unsure how a "me" seeing the world is supposed to feel like. Does this refer to those stories and thoughts that I have about experience? The thoughts that keep popping up when I'm just looking around and trying to experience things as they are? I have a difficult time answering the question because I don't know what to feel for, what to differentiate between. I can't say if it's one or the other, the question feels very abstract right now.

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:07 am

I'm trying to understand this question. I'll try and make my response as "non-thinking" as possible but bear with me because I'm a little confused. If I were new to the world, the way things would be perceived would just be as they are. Because there are no preconceived thoughts or stories to filter experience. There is no identity. There is no "I wonder how the hell I'm supposed to answer Ingen's question" or "am I doing this right?" or "what IS there what IS there?" thoughts. It would just be there, experienced, as is.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:52 am

If I were new to the world, the way things would be perceived would just be as they are. Because there are no preconceived thoughts or stories to filter experience. There is no identity.
Yes. For a baby, there is no identity, there is only world. There is no "I" seeing, hearing, doing. And this experience is still there. As you found out before, there are no boundaries in direct experience. There is only world, there is unity.

So how did this YOU come onto the stage? Your parents talked to a Helena who seemed to be someplace behind you. This Helena got praised for some happenings and scolded for others, and because you believed everything your parents said, you believed also this. There were many other "facts" you came to believe in, like: e.g. that things fall down from tables when the hand made a certain movement. That Santa brought presents for Christmas.

What we are doing now is sorting out what is fact and what is fiction. Things still fall down from tables, that you can verify easily. The Santa Hypothesis has (hopefully) been falsified.

Here is a little exercise for you: Close your eyes and imagine you are taking a lemon out of your pocket and hold it in your hand. You feel the texture, imagine the smell. If you imagine biting in it you might even get water in your mouth. Try that, as vividly as you can. Does it feel real? But when you open your eyes, there is no lemon.

And now consider that everybody you ever met takes the imaginary lemon in their pocket for real. Of course you would think that you have a lemon, too. The same is happening with self.

Is the character Helena real?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:25 pm

I'm not sure how to verify. The body is real. The things the body DOES is real. I'm not sure if the character is real because again, I'm not sure what it refers to.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:16 pm

I'm not sure if the character is real because again, I'm not sure what it refers to.
I say the character it is purely imaginary. It doesn't refer to anything. It is not real.

Look for yourself.

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:55 pm

Well I'm going to take the sense of uncertainty and confusion to be evidence that its not real. If something were real, I'd be able to know exactly what it is you refer to. But instead, I find myself trying to define what a "character" is in my head and trying to mentally untangle the meaning of the question. Something that is grounded in reality should not be this difficult to figure out. Even though they aren't physically concrete, things like emotions and thoughts are real and can be described to a certain degree. This can't. Instead, I find myself defining character AS emotions or thoughts.

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Ingen
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:14 am

With "character" I meant something like a character in a book or film, like Batman. Not character traits. Sorry for the confusion. Character traits - emotions and thought patterns - are real. But do they belong to a self? We are going to talk about thoughts later.

Did you read my story about the baby and Helena, who got the parent's attention? Can you relate to it?

Did you do the lemon-exercise?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:07 am

Sorry, I will have to post a response tomorrow evening, I just have to deal with my last day for midterms.

I will be back!


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