Helena - Ingen

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Ingen
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Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:39 am

Hi Helena!

I'm happy to hear that you want to continue. Would you give me a short summary of where you're at?

What does the word "self" point to?

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helena
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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:49 am

The "self" points to a whole mess of things. Some real, others not so real, others I am not even sure of. Overall, it is a label, so whether it points to something real or not, it is still a label.

The REAL:
-The body, and with that, physical sensations of all forms
-Emotional sensation
-The unique perspective that takes place in every individual

The not-so-real:
-A controller
-A possessing entity
-Thoughts
-Stories, both past, and future

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:08 am

I suggest we look at your list one by one. First the "real".
-The body, and with that, physical sensations of all forms
When you say "I, Helena, exist" - do you mean "I, Helena, am a body including physical sensations? Like, I am my arm, I am my aching tooth, I am my sweating body? (This is not the way "I" is usually seen)

Or do you mean "I, Helena have a body, including physical sensations".

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:10 am

Well probably both at this point. The reason "I" would be the former is because that's all that can be felt, really. It's the only thing that has some basis in reality. But the latter makes sense to me too. I "have" a body in some way (maybe in the sense that I feel sensations and such and this becomes "mine") but I don't really "have" a body because...

I've typed out sentences for 30 minutes trying to explain what I mean and I'm not really sure what I mean. I'll try, but I don't think I'm making sense. I don't really "have" a body because if the I IS the body then it would mean that something owns itself, which doesn't seem entirely right. I don't really think anything could own anything.

Maybe this is all coming from a thinking, "logic" place that I shouldn't be going to.

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:07 am

Helena, that sounds like you are thinking too much :)
Let's stay with the body, though. Please sit down, close your eyes and try to feel where and how you can find a boundary between you and the world. What do you find? And, remember: No thinking allowed!!!

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:40 am

Well it's hard to articulate without thinking about it. Maybe the thoughts themselves are the boundary. I'm not really sure what a boundary would feel like.

It's whatever or where concentration is drawn at a given moment and that moment is then labelled "mine"

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:01 pm

I'm not really sure what a boundary would feel like.


That's what we are trying to find out. Is there a boundary between you and the world in your direct perception?

Sit down and feel, don't think about articulating. This is not an exam. Forget about me and I and everything. Take your time. Take the whole day, if you want.

Relax.
Close your eyes.
Can you feel the shape of your body, or could it be any shape?
Without looking into your memory: How many toes do you have?
How tall are you?
Can you feel a boundary where your skin touches clothes? Or is it just some blurry feeling..
Concentrate on the bodily feeling alone.
Relax.

And THEN tell me what you find.

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:10 am

I find that it's mostly a blurry feeling. Yes, I can feel skin touching clothes or skin touching other things but it's certainly not a boundary. It is just sensation in particular parts. I can't determine a body shape beyond what my body is touching and even that is not a concrete boundary, just more sensation. I can't count my toes without thinking about it, I can't determine height, I can just physically feel sensations and even these do not give me a solid boundary.

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:10 am

Great! I would suggest to go back to this exercise often.

Now the next step: With eyes closed, listen to the sounds around you.

Are you "doing hearing", or are the sounds "just there"?
Does it require effort to hear sounds?
Do you find anything else but sounds in this process? (LIke, an extra "hearer")

You can do this with music, too.

Enjoy!

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:00 pm

Helena, are you still there?

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:09 am

Yes I am here, I meant to post my observations earlier today until I realized I was late for an appointment. Sorry about that.

Of course, all sound is just there, I am not consciously exerting to listen, I just hear. It's unavoidable. I don't know if I would say there's an "extra" hearer but there is focus and attention. Like, where do I divert my attention to listen. Some of it feels like a choice but at the same time, a lot of it doesn't because whether I choose to or not, I'm going to hear whatever is there.

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:17 am

Of course, all sound is just there, I am not consciously exerting to listen, I just hear. It's unavoidable.
Of course. Read again what you wrote here. That's IT!
I don't know if I would say there's an "extra" hearer


"I don't know" ? You mean no, right? No, there is no "extra" hearer.
but there is focus and attention.
Yes. Sometimes one sound comes into focus, sometimes another.
If suddenly a dog barks behind you, the barking comes into focus quite violently.
Like, where do I divert my attention to listen. Some of it feels like a choice
Have you looked closely? Investigate that. How many of the sounds do you choose to hear? And where your attention goes - are you directing that? Or does the attention just wander to various places (barking, interesting talk, music...)
but at the same time, a lot of it doesn't because whether I choose to or not, I'm going to hear whatever is there.
Yes.
Is there a you hearing whatever is there, or is sound just there? Is there something processing the sound in your direct experience? (No stories about soundwaves, please...)

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:46 pm

Have you looked closely? Investigate that. How many of the sounds do you choose to hear? And where your attention goes - are you directing that? Or does the attention just wander to various places (barking, interesting talk, music...)
Well if I'm just sitting there listening, it wanders. I find that there are sounds that I can consciously make a decision to direct to but for me to direct my attention there in the first place, that part of it is automatic. And also, like I said, whether I choose/decide to or not, I'm going to hear whatever is there.
Is there a you hearing whatever is there, or is sound just there?
Both? The sound is very obviously just there, regardless of whether I am hearing it. But also, I am there, hearing it, that's also taking place.
Is there something processing the sound in your direct experience? (No stories about soundwaves, please...)
Well there's this "me" thing listening and in that way, "processing." But no no I wouldn't call it "processing." I mean I am hear, listening to those sounds but I'm not doing anything to do that. I'm just another thing listening to other things do their thing.

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby Ingen » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:01 pm

I don't quite understand this part:
I find that there are sounds that I can consciously make a decision to direct to
but for me to direct my attention there in the first place, that part of it is automatic.
Is it conscious or is it automatic? If you mean that you consciously put your attention to a sound: how do you decide on which sounds to focus on? Isn't it more like attention gets "caught" by some sounds?
Is there a you hearing whatever is there, or is sound just there?
Both? The sound is very obviously just there, regardless of whether I am hearing it. But also, I am there, hearing it, that's also taking place.
I agree with the first, "very obvious" part. Would you please elaborate on the second part. "I am there, hearing it, that's also taking place". In your direct experience, with closed eyes, listening to sounds. With no thinking. How in the world is "I am there" taking place?
Well there's this "me" thing listening and in that way, "processing." But no no I wouldn't call it "processing." I mean I am hear, listening to those sounds but I'm not doing anything to do that. I'm just another thing listening to other things do their thing.
How are you experiencing you as a "thing listening"?

Have you really done the listening exercise? What is happening without thoughts?

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Re: Helena - Ingen

Postby helena » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:21 pm

Is it conscious or is it automatic? If you mean that you consciously put your attention to a sound: how do you decide on which sounds to focus on? Isn't it more like attention gets "caught" by some sounds?
Well what I meant was that the decision is mostly automatic. To be honest I don't think I am JUST observing, only because I am trying to sort through things I was previously presented with on this forum. I will sit and observe but sometimes I will try and purposefully direct attention to certain sounds to see if there is someone actually there making those decisions or controlling in some way. I'm trying to feel an absence but instead, I just notice that I can focus attention on one sound and temporarily ignore others so in that way, it feels like a controlled decision. But again, the sounds are always there whether this controlled decision occurs or not. It's not like I can control what sounds are actually there, I just feel like I control where attention goes.
Would you please elaborate on the second part. "I am there, hearing it, that's also taking place". In your direct experience, with closed eyes, listening to sounds. With no thinking. How in the world is "I am there" taking place?
Well, there are the sounds just occurring right? And then there's also me being there and listening to them. I could be in another place listening to different sounds and that whole experience would be completely different. I could even be in the same place with the same sounds going on but I might be doing something else, not paying attention to them. That experience of actually sitting there and observing those sounds in that moment, that is what I mean by "I am there." I mean that I am present, in time and space, listening to sounds.
How are you experiencing you as a "thing listening"?
Well if there weren't me as an entity listening then I would not hear anything. I exist don't I? The experience of listening feels like an affirmation of existence.


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