Nara's chat

[Nara]

1) In choosing the hand, what was FOUND that made the choice?
2) In raising the hand in the air, what was FOUND that made that happen? (Causing the muscles to contract, and the arm and hand move up).

There seems to be just choice and then something happens, my hand moves

[Xain]

There seems to be just choice and then something happens, my hand moves

Describe the process as it appears to you.
What did you find making the choice?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Describe the process as it appears to you.
What did you find making the choice?

The process was initiated by your suggestion so there is some intentionality. After that though there was just choice happening, decisions being made without a decider needing to be there. Unless 'self' is so fast that it is beyond my perception then that is my sense of what goes on.

[Xain]

The process was initiated by your suggestion so there is some intentionality

Whereabouts did you find this in your experience when choosing?
Or is this simply an idea?

After that though there was just choice happening

Ok, a choice was made.
What made the choice?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Whereabouts did you find this in your experience when choosing?
Or is this simply an idea?

Not that I found it in my experience I was just trying to understand what was involved in doing the task you suggested.

Ok, a choice was made.
What made the choice?

In all honesty I don't really know which is why I described it as choice simply happened. The exercise has made me realise that there are 100's of choices 'I' make everyday all of which has no need of a self from them to simply just happen.

Of course on one level I cannot help but know that the muscles are contracted through neurological enervation but I'm guessing that is not the sort of thing you are getting at.

[Xain]

Not that I found it in my experience I was just trying to understand what was involved in doing the task you suggested.

Sure, but you are adding in further assumptions into the inquiry.

Specifically, I wanted to know what you found in the experience of doing the exercise.

The exercise has made me realise that there are 100's of choices 'I' make everyday all of which has no need of a self from them to simply just happen.

I don't understand what you mean.
If 'you' make choices then the 'you' that is being describing IS the self.
Assuming that there is one.

If there is no inherent self, then there is no real choice.

Of course on one level I cannot help but know that the muscles are contracted through neurological enervation but I'm guessing that is not the sort of thing you are getting at

What I am asking for is for you to tell me what you FIND rather than what you think is going on.

Ok, let's break it down into pieces and try that approach.

The process was initiated by your suggestion so there is some intentionality.

What proof do you have that there is someone this end making suggestions through their own free-will.
(An idea, belief or assumption is not proof).

Now examine your own experience as you do the exercise again.
What exactly is happening?
Where exactly is the choice taking place?
What is making the arm move?
What proof do you have that a choice is being made?
What proof do you have that the arm is being controlled by something?
What can you FIND.
(An idea, belief or assumption that a choice is being made is not proof).

Xain ♥

[Nara]

A full weekend and I haven't had time to consider what you have written. I just wanted to let you know that I will have more time tomorrow.

[Xain]

Hi Nara

Thanks for letting me know.
You could break this down into examining two areas if that would assist you.
1) What do you find in the experience of doing the exercise (seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch).
2) What further assumptions and additional information are added by thinking about what you believe is happening (mental processes).

Xain ♥

[Nara]

1) What do you find in the experience of doing the exercise (seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch).[/quote

Hi Xian,
thanks for the understanding.
As to the above quote my answer would be the same as when we were looking at experience through the senses, i.e. just the perceptual content.

As to the exercise regarding choice and motivation I seem to be struggling to make it clear. When I spoke about there being 100's of choices I suppose I mean decisions or options. These are just presented to beings by virtue of existing in the world.

What proof do you have that there is someone this end making suggestions through their own free-will.
(An idea, belief or assumption is not proof).[/quote

I agree. I was simply trying to say that what ever you may or may not be, your suggestion 'lift up your hand' was clearly part of what caused/motivated/chose 'me' to do the task.

2) What further assumptions and additional information are added by thinking about what you believe is happening (mental processes).

During the experiment there are little by way of assumptions. Then, in order to communicate, there are a host of post experience mental processes, understanding what has occurred.

[Xain]

You don't seem to have much interest in the guidance.
I've asked you many questions, and almost all of them have been ignored.

We are examining 'choice'.
Please give me a complete breakdown on what you discovered during the exercise.
If nothing was discovered, simply explain what you found happening.

If there is definitely a choice, describe how it is known / how it happens.
If there is 'free-will', what does that term relate to right now? Who or what has it?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Wow heavy.
Sorry you feel this way. I've engaged and tried to communicate as much as you will,as it were, allow. Whenever I try and explain my experience in any detail I am, maybe rightly, chastened for thinking too much about it. I am at a loss how to tell you things without conceptualising which seems to be 'wrong'.
I have, really valued the time and I have gained much from our exchanges. However, I am sure you have seen some of this before and are wise enough to cut your losses. And you are wise to spot that due to the above I am getting somewhat lost with respect as to what to do.
Many thanks and kind regards
Nara