Nara's chat

[Nara]

Hi Xian,
to continue. You left me with some pointers to respond to.

What 'I' is living in accordance with a view?
What does the word point to?

I have been reflecting on a number of these questions whilst at work and I think that my 'self' is my personality. It is that which is recognised by others that then affirms my existence.

So there is an 'I' that is experiencing . . . and has individual moments of experiencing. Yes?
This is not 'seeing', as you've already mentioned there is no 'I' or 'body' seeing.
The other senses then?

Yes I think that is what I am saying. That myself is fragmentary and that I guess it is consciousness, in terms of what is s'eeing' rather than 'body' or 'eyes' etc.

So the body feels the feeling of being unwell - Is that right?
It is a feeling IN or OF the body?

Yes your description of feeling unwell yesterday was a bodily sensation or event. Then there was an emotional reaction to that sensation. In that I felt a bit fed up and a little low in mood.

Just for information a good nights sleep seems to have put paid to that and I am feeling somewhat brighter today.
Regards
Nara

[Xain]

I have been reflecting on a number of these questions whilst at work and I think that my 'self' is my personality

Is 'personality' anything other than the content of thoughts? Or is it a real 'thing'?

Yes I think that is what I am saying. That myself is fragmentary and that I guess it is consciousness, in terms of what is 'seeing' rather than 'body' or 'eyes' etc.

Where is the 'consciousness' located?
Is the consciousness that is seeing, located in the same place as the consciousness that is feeling or hearing?
How do you know for certain that 'consciousness' is seeing, and not the eyes or the brain?

Is the consciousness you are referring to a separate 'thing'? If so, how do you know?
Could you point to it with a finger?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Hi Xian,
Not sure if I should be waiting for some further guidance from you. However, I have been continuing to look for where a sense of self resides. I feel its strongest presence in my 'personality', the self that I use in relationship to others. I pause as I think without some specific pointers I run the risk of over analysing. Hope all is well.
Kind Regards
Stephen

[Xain]

Hi Stephen

Did you see my questions about consciousnsss?
Have a go at answering them when you have a moment.
I am trying to establish what you currently believe is doing 'seeing' if it is not 'I' (a separate self) or the body.

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Where is the 'consciousness' located?
Is the consciousness that is seeing, located in the same place as the consciousness that is feeling or hearing?
How do you know for certain that 'consciousness' is seeing, and not the eyes or the brain?

Your question is interesting I don't know why I hadn't attended to it. Without your pointers I think I would have answered that consciousness seems to be located in my head. At least sometimes. Your further question about the similarity or otherwise of the consciousness that experiences different sense perception challenges my first response. As I try and witness sensation it is true to say that I experience the sensation directly, the sensation of pressure in my sitting bones is felt in my sitting bones , my vision is experienced in my eyes etc.

Is the consciousness you are referring to a separate 'thing'? If so, how do you know?
Could you point to it with a finger?

No consciousness doesn't feel like a separate thing.

[Xain]

No consciousness doesn't feel like a separate thing.

As you sit there, examine the current experience.
From your current perspective, how is it known that consciousness is not a separate thing?

The guidance itself is for you to realise that whatever you consider yourself to be, it is not a separate 'thing'.
If it is clear to you as you are suggesting that you are consciousness, and that consciousness is not a separate thing . . . then no guidance is needed, is it?

As a suggestion, it might be an idea to put spiritual ideas to one side and answer from what you really feel is going on for you right now, as I have a suspicion that 'consciousness' is something you may have picked up as a spiritual idea from somewhere which doesn't match what you really feel is going on right now (and that you detail later on). Just an idea. I might be wrong of course, and feel free to disagree if you feel that I am.

I think I would have answered that consciousness seems to be located in my head.

But that is a separate thing - With a defined location.
Since we determine the location of things with the senses, which sense or senses are you using to determine this?

As I try and witness sensation it is true to say that I experience the sensation directly, the sensation of pressure in my sitting bones is felt in my sitting bones , my vision is experienced in my eyes etc.

Ok - I sense we are getting on a better track now with what you really believe is going on.
So 'seeing' is experienced in (or by) the eyes.
Pressure of 'sitting' is a sensation experienced by the body (sitting bones).
How about hearing?
How about thinking thoughts and imagined objects? (As in, is there a separate experiencer of them).

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Dear Xian,
sorry for my absence, a couple of busy days.

The guidance itself is for you to realise that whatever you consider yourself to be, it is not a separate 'thing'.
If it is clear to you as you are suggesting that you are consciousness, and that consciousness is not a separate thing . . . then no guidance is needed, is it?

I have been considering the above statement a lot over the last 48 hours. I have continued to do as you have asked and looked to my experience and I cannot see/feel/ hear etc a separate consciousness that is doing the perceiving. And I have been asking myself whether what I have been experiencing and living is indeed the breaking of the 3 fetters. I do feel that mind has quietened down tremendously and I feel lighter. As you can imagine I am reluctant to make any statements about attainments or otherwise. Yet I find myself more aware, my level of perception to have intensified and it seems to be a pretty stable experience. Please don't think I am saying anything other than sharing how things have been for me since starting.

I am out again this evening so if I miss you I am around tomorrow.
Regards
Nara

[Xain]

I have continued to do as you have asked and looked to my experience and I cannot see/feel/ hear etc a separate consciousness that is doing the perceiving

Ok, good.

Is the body perceiving an outside world?
Is there an 'I' perceiving an outside world?

And I have been asking myself whether what I have been experiencing and living is indeed the breaking of the 3 fetters.

You have broken the first fetter when it is completely clear that there is no 'I' experiencing or living.
(Or separate consciousness, or body, or 'thing' or anything at all considered as being separate)

As you can imagine I am reluctant to make any statements about attainments or otherwise.

I understand. If you have truly broken the first fetters, it should be completely clear that there is no 'real self' to attain something.

Please don't think I am saying anything other than sharing how things have been for me since starting.

No problem at all - It may be that the first fetter (maybe more) have already broken, and it's just a question of confirming that.

Is it completely clear that . . .

There is nothing separate here experiencing (seeing, hearing etc).
There is nothing separate here doing or controlling.
There is nothing separate here thinking or imagining.
There is nothing separate here choosing and deciding.
There is nothing separate here from life.

If all this appears true, then you may well have broken the first fetter (and realised that there is no inherent self here to break fetters).

Xain ♥

[Xain]

Hi Nara

If you remember, you agreed to the following point:

> Please try to reply at least once per day - This maintains a momentum in the guiding which is important. If you know you won't be able to reply for a few days, just let me know beforehand - It's Ok.

Guidance 'proper' hasn't started yet, as we cannot get established what you currently believe yourself to be at a basic grass-roots level.
Perhaps it may be best to end the conversation at this point - Maybe come back to it after a short break if you still have the interest.

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Yes I remember the injunction. I have been reluctant or hesitant, not sure which, to start again. I have been very vigilant to experience over the past few weeks and have used your suggestions with some commitment. However, I find myself unable to locate a sense of 'self' and yet I have been aware of some subtle sense of self, I cannot place this in my body or feelings, it feels more like a fragrance perfuming my experience.

So in all honesty I don't know whether we should carry on or not. I am truly grateful for your time as I do feel different, more aware and awake to experiences and with a subtle but noticeably increased sense of perception. All of which is really lovely. My hesitation in carrying on is that I fear I might be frustrating to you. Not purposefully but because I might just be 'one of those types' whatever they might be. Someone for whom this process is not suitable or they are not ready for, kind of thing.

So please forgive my absence, it was because I am engaged with it rather than the opposite but I take your take your chastening and would like to carry on but if you have any of the above concerns then please let me know, I sense you will anyway.

Regards

Nara

[Xain]

We can continue - Will you be able to stick to the guidelines as described or is there a problem?
If you are unable to identify what you current beliefs are about yourself with any degree of certainty, then guidance cannot start.

I am truly grateful for your time as I do feel different, more aware and awake to experiences and with a subtle but noticeably increased sense of perception.

I am still unsure where you are with any of this realisation as we still have yet to establish your current level of realisation.
We haven't even started yet.
What I can say, however, is what you are describing here . . . experience, awareness or perception changing has nothing to do with this realisation at all.

Xain ♥

[Nara]

If you are unable to identify what you current beliefs are about yourself with any degree of certainty, then guidance cannot start.

I fear that this is indeed the case. This subtle sense of self that I mentioned previously is contained in my thoughts, in particular my reflections on other sense or mental experiences. this 'voice' is where this 'sense of self' seems to reside. I am tentative about it because it feels weak next to my sense that there isn't a fixed self residing elsewhere in my experience. Sorry, that all sounds terribly vague. Maybe I need more time.

[Nara]

Thoughts are where my self exists.

[Xain]

Thoughts are where my self exists.

Ok - And where are those thoughts located?
Can you give an exact location?

You previously said:

I think that my 'self' is my personality. It is that which is recognised by others

How does that tie-in with 'thoughts are where my self exists'?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Ok - And where are those thoughts located?
Can you give an exact location?

They are located in my mind/brain/head.

I think that my 'self' is my personality. It is that which is recognised by others

How does that tie-in with 'thoughts are where my self exists'?

I don't exactly know. I Think in the earlier iteration of where my 'self' exists I considered it to be in my personality. Upon further reflection the location of self being in my thoughts feels closer to the truth.