Nara's chat

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Xain
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Tue May 02, 2017 11:57 pm

Ok - And where are those thoughts located?
Can you give an exact location?
They are located in my mind/brain/head.
How are you establishing that thoughts are inside the head?
If the head was cut open, could we locate the thoughts inside?
Upon further reflection the location of self being in my thoughts feels closer to the truth.
You said 'My thoughts' - So the thoughts are personal?
What is witnessing the thoughts?
As I try and witness sensation it is true to say that I experience the sensation directly, the sensation of pressure in my sitting bones is felt in my sitting bones , my vision is experienced in my eyes etc
Is this still true?
Sitting is felt by the body - Vision is experienced by the eyes.
What about hearing, smell and taste?

Xain ♥

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Nara
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Wed May 03, 2017 5:47 pm

How are you establishing that thoughts are inside the head?
If the head was cut open, could we locate the thoughts inside?
The thoughts seem to be experienced there in the way that my aching back seems to be experienced in my back etc. And no I don't think we could locate thoughts, as a physical thing, by virtue of surgery.
You said 'My thoughts' - So the thoughts are personal?
What is witnessing the thoughts?
The ones that seem like 'self' are the thoughts that are more directed and reflective rather than the ones that seem like 'noise'. It is those ones that could be described as 'personal'. The second half of your question seems to go the nub of the matter. OK, it feels like something that perceives thoughts (consciousness?!), is perceiving and able to in a small way direct thoughts. So it is the faculty to be able to perceive thoughts, that we have developed over evolutionary time, that is 'witnessing' my thoughts.
Is this still true?
Sitting is felt by the body - Vision is experienced by the eyes.
What about hearing, smell and taste?
Yes it is still true. However, I am much less sensitive to smell and taste so they feel less prominent.

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Xain
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Wed May 03, 2017 6:39 pm

And no I don't think we could locate thoughts, as a physical thing, by virtue of surgery.
Ok.
If thoughts are not physical, then are they REALLY located inside the head? Or just appear to be?
Imagine an orange - Make it as real as possible.
From what you said in your previous answer, I assume it is clear that the imaginary orange in not a physical object.
So where is it? Where is that orange REALLY?
(It's perfectly acceptable to have no real idea exactly where it is).
The ones that seem like 'self' are the thoughts that are more directed and reflective rather than the ones that seem like 'noise'. It is those ones that could be described as 'personal'
I understand your reply, but that wasn't quite what I was getting at.
Clearly the thought CONTENT might be personal related (thoughts containing references to a self, I, me etc).
I'm referring to the very thoughts themselves - The 'voice in the head'.
You suggest that 'vision' is experienced by the eyes - Ok.
What are 'thoughts' experienced by? (Hence are they personal)?
OK, it feels like something that perceives thoughts (consciousness?!)
So there are two things 1) Thoughts and 2) Consciousness that perceives them.
Is the conciousness personal? Where is the consciousness located?
Either way, how is your answer known? How did you come by your conclusions?
So it is the faculty to be able to perceive thoughts, that we have developed over evolutionary time, that is 'witnessing' my thoughts.
What is the 'we' that has developed a faculty?
Or is your statement more a 'general description' rather than something to be examined?
Either way, you are referring to a separate 'thing' that has developed a faculty - What is that?

Xain ♥

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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Thu May 04, 2017 6:29 pm

If thoughts are not physical, then are they REALLY located inside the head? Or just appear to be?
Imagine an orange - Make it as real as possible.
From what you said in your previous answer, I assume it is clear that the imaginary orange in not a physical object.
So where is it? Where is that orange REALLY?
They certainly appear to exist in my head. The orange is a product of my imagination and so is as 'real' as any imaginary object. Real that is to that particular function (imagination).
I understand your reply, but that wasn't quite what I was getting at.
Clearly the thought CONTENT might be personal related (thoughts containing references to a self, I, me etc).
I'm referring to the very thoughts themselves - The 'voice in the head'.
You suggest that 'vision' is experienced by the eyes - Ok.
What are 'thoughts' experienced by? (Hence are they personal)?
Just for clarity what I was suggesting when I wrote
The ones that seem like 'self' are the thoughts that are more directed and reflective rather than the ones that seem like 'noise'. It is those ones that could be described as 'personal'
is not so much those thoughts that are about the me/I/self etc but more when thoughts have a progressive and directive quality to them.
I guess thoughts are experienced by mind/brain. Most of them seem totally random and that they are thinking me, if that makes sense, rather than the other way round. So most of the time the thoughts don't seem personal although they often consist of elements of things that 'I' have done as a result they can feel familiar.
So there are two things 1) Thoughts and 2) Consciousness that perceives them.
Is the conciousness personal? Where is the consciousness located?
Either way, how is your answer known? How did you come by your conclusions?
The consciousness doesn't feel personal actually it feels more like a capacity, a sense.Consciousness feels like it is located dependent on what it is conscious of. So eye consciousness feels connected to the eye, body to a 'consciousness' of the body is how it feels. I would say that I know the answer through trying to observe.
What is the 'we' that has developed a faculty?
Or is your statement more a 'general description' rather than something to be examined?
Either way, you are referring to a separate 'thing' that has developed a faculty - What is that?
A wise distinction. I think it is a broader piece of speculation and redundant in this context.

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Xain
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Thu May 04, 2017 11:36 pm

I guess thoughts are experienced by mind/brain.
Ok, we can go with this as to what is experiencing the thoughts.
They certainly appear to exist in my head.
If we go with the imaginary orange example again, what is the orange being witnessed by?
So eye consciousness feels connected to the eye
But isn't that personal? It relates to a separate body.
I would say that I know the answer through trying to observe.
Yes, but you gave two examples that gave me the impression that the 'consciousness' you can observe is related to the body and not 'impersonal' as you first suggested.

Xain ♥

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Nara
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Fri May 05, 2017 6:58 pm

Hi Xian,
just finished eating and now heading out. I have read your prompts and I will get back to you tomorrow, sorry not enough time today.
Nara

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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Fri May 05, 2017 7:27 pm

Ok, Nara.
Thank you for letting me know and continuing with the guidance as agreed.

All the best
Xain ♥

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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Sat May 06, 2017 6:07 pm

If we go with the imaginary orange example again, what is the orange being witnessed by?
At the risk of repetition it is mind that is witnessing the imaginary orange. Or at least that is all I can speak of it being.
But isn't that personal? It relates to a separate body.
I am not sure what is meant by 'a separate body' in this context, sorry.
Yes, but you gave two examples that gave me the impression that the 'consciousness' you can observe is related to the body and not 'impersonal' as you first suggested.
I think I am maybe getting the 'personal' thing. When I suggest that the consciousness is doing the perceiving and I say it is impersonal I mean that the consciousness isn't 'me' it is this neutral faculty that we have to experience and interpret our experiences. Does that clarify?

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Xain
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Sat May 06, 2017 7:39 pm

Hi again Nara

Let me just remind you once more, that I am trying to establish what 'I' points to in your current understanding.
This has nothing to do with non-dual beliefs you may have picked up from non-dual teachers.
At the risk of repetition it is mind that is witnessing the imaginary orange. Or at least that is all I can speak of it being.
No problem - So both thoughts and imaginary objects are witnessed by the mind. Got it.
So 'I' is both cases is 'mind'.
I am not sure what is meant by 'a separate body' in this context, sorry.
Sure - I am trying to work out what you mean by consciousness.
Either it is personal, or it isn't personal.

You said:
So eye consciousness feels connected to the eye
But that is a personal consciousness - It relates to the body (eyes).
'I' means 'eyes' (I am seeing, means 'eyes are seeing').

You also suggested 'Chair is being felt by sitting bones' which again relates to the body, and NOT an impersonal consciousness.
(I am feeling means 'body is feeling').
When I suggest that the consciousness is doing the perceiving and I say it is impersonal I mean that the consciousness isn't 'me' it is this neutral faculty that we have to experience and interpret our experiences. Does that clarify?
Hmmm . . . not really . . . because you seem to be saying two different things.
If consciousness is impersonal, then it does not relate to a 'thing' (in this context, a separate body).
But you've given two examples where the consciousness is related to the body (eyes and sitting bones).

Also, you said it's a neutral faculty that WE have in order to experience.
What is 'we'? What exactly has this faculty?
Again, you appear to be referring to something that is clearly 'personal'.

So from what you said 'Eyes are seeing', 'Sitting bones (the body) is feeling'.
Could we quickly touch on the remaining three senses - Hearing, Smell and Taste.
What do you believe is responsible for those senses?

Xain ♥

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Nara
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Sun May 07, 2017 6:12 pm

Once again I must beg your patience. We have been out all day enjoying the fine weather and have some friends round for food this evening. As a result I have insufficient time to draft a response.
Nara
x

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Nara
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Mon May 08, 2017 5:19 pm

Sure - I am trying to work out what you mean by consciousness.
Either it is personal, or it isn't personal.
I think I am slowly getting what you mean by 'personal', It is indeed personal to me but not where my sense of 'self' exists. Apologises for my lack of clarity.
Also, you said it's a neutral faculty that WE have in order to experience.
What is 'we'? What exactly has this faculty?
Again, you appear to be referring to something that is clearly 'personal'.
With regards to the 'we' I mean human beings, those possessed of a reflexive consciousness, maybe all living beings.
So from what you said 'Eyes are seeing', 'Sitting bones (the body) is feeling'.
Could we quickly touch on the remaining three senses - Hearing, Smell and Taste.
What do you believe is responsible for those senses?
The sense organs and mind I think are responsible for the remaining of the senses. These 3 remaining senses feel much less as though they might contain a self. They require external stimuli, that somehow body and thinking do not. So I am less 'wrapped' up in them and yet I love music and food and take a great deal of pleasure in them.

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Xain
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Mon May 08, 2017 8:55 pm

It is indeed personal to me but not where my sense of 'self' exists.
Where does it exist?
Can this location be witnessed in some way?

Right, we've had a good consideration of what 'I' relates to and some ideas about consciousness having a personal location.
Now we begin LOOKING (and by that, I mean examining what can be found with all the senses, not just 'seeing').

The usual belief that 'Consciousness is tied to this body is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc

This first exercise is a very basic one that I start off with.
I do this to attempt to 'focus' you to answer from what can be FOUND (or possibly NOT found) rather than THINKING what the correct answer might be, or going to medical, scientific or spiritual beliefs.

We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on it's own.

Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?

Xain ♥

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Nara
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Tue May 09, 2017 5:11 pm

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Yes.
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
Apart from those variations of light that you mention, no.
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
No
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
There is just blackness, there is an association in my experience of the blackness being connected with my eyes.

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Xain
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Xain » Wed May 10, 2017 8:59 am

Ok, good stuff Nara.
There is just blackness, there is an association in my experience of the blackness being connected with my eyes.
In what way?
Do you find eyes in the experience?
Or is 'eyes are seeing' more like an idea about what is responsible?

Open your eyes now.
A room / world of different objects appear.

Again, just sticking with the visual sense for the moment.
1) Can anything be found other than 'What can be seen'?
2) Can an 'I', a pair of eyes, a person etc be found doing the witnessing? Or is there just 'what can be seen'?

Xain ♥

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Nara
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Re: Nara's chat

Postby Nara » Wed May 10, 2017 6:36 pm

In what way?
Do you find eyes in the experience?
Or is 'eyes are seeing' more like an idea about what is responsible?
Not quite an idea about what is responsible. More physical than that, more like the eyes being the organs of the sense therefore the blackness feels connected with the visual sense.
1) Can anything be found other than 'What can be seen'?
No, although for continued honesty I am aware of 'stuff' being added onto my visual impressions. For example I am sat looking out of our front window onto a beautiful wooded hill, covered in lovely evening light. So within my total experience of 'looking' there is an emotional tone. But just the act of seeing reveals just what can be seen.
2) Can an 'I', a pair of eyes, a person etc be found doing the witnessing? Or is there just 'what can be seen'?
I only have a sense of some eyes, as mentioned above.
Nara


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