MS- Absence of Self

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Hello Xain,
1) Can what is making the hand / arm rise into the air (the muscles contract etc) be FOUND?
Could not find “what is making ‘ the hand rise and fall.
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself?) be found making that happen?
No ‘I’ or Person can be found making it happen.
What exactly is making that happen? What do you FIND?
It looks like nothing makes it happen. It is automatic. Frankly, I am slightly confused as to what made the choice the and what moved the hand voluntarily. I could not find it.

Best Wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:44 am

Frankly, I am slightly confused as to what made the choice the and what moved the hand voluntarily. I could not find it.
Good. And you've stepped ahead, but it's not a problem.

1) What made that choice? Could you FIND a chooser?
2) Can you find an 'I' choosing? Can you find a body choosing?
3) There may be thoughts arising during this process - But do the thoughts themselves actually make choices?
Or are any thoughts simply commenting on the process?
No ‘I’ or Person can be found making it happen.
Good. So would 'I am raising the hand' or 'This body is making the hand rise' be anything other than just ideas and beliefs?
Or if you like, the content of thoughts / assumptions that might appear if you were to try to think what the answer is?
It looks like nothing makes it happen.
Ok, I understand what you mean but let's be a bit specific here.
In your visual experience, you see a hand and an arm rise, would that be right?
Would 'nothing made that happen' or 'something made that happen' BOTH be added speculation from thinking?
Is the only thing you can really determine right now, is that the arm moved up in the air?

What about choice?
If a REAL chooser cannot be found, is there a REAL choice being made?
What are the implications of this?

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:17 am

Hi Xain,
1) What made that choice? Could you FIND a chooser?
No chooser can be found or determined.
2) Can you find an 'I' choosing? Can you find a body choosing?
Could not find either 'I" or body choosing.
3) There may be thoughts arising during this process - But do the thoughts themselves actually make choices?
Or are any thoughts simply commenting on the process?
The choice is made even before thoughts start arising. Thoughts themselves do not make the choice.
This body is making the hand rise' be anything other than just ideas and beliefs?
Or if you like, the content of thoughts / assumptions that might appear if you were to try to think what the answer is?
The thoughts arise after the choice has been made. Anything that appears as the content of the thought will be belief.
In your visual experience, you see a hand and an arm rise, would that be right?
Would 'nothing made that happen' or 'something made that happen' BOTH be added speculation from thinking?
Is the only thing you can really determine right now, is that the arm moved up in the air?
Yes, in my visual experience I will see a hand and a arm rise and 'nothing made that happen' or 'something made that happen' is the speculation by thought which arises afterwards. The only thing that can be determined is that the arm moved up.
What about choice?
If a REAL chooser cannot be found, is there a REAL choice being made?
What are the implications of this?
In the experiment, no Real Chooser could be found. When I had to choose between Right or left hand to be raised, instinctively one of the hands get chosen.

Does this means that all the choices are made without any chooser ?
Does it mean that my life for the most part is predetermined and will be unfolded without any other input ?

I know, I am trying to understand it conceptually with but I am struggling to reconcile with it.

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:36 am

Does this means that all the choices are made without any chooser ?
To a certain way of thinking, yes.
You did suggest that 'there is no chooser' is only an idea about what is happening . . . and that the only thing you can establish was that a hand and arm moved. So maybe a little more explanation and discovery is needed.

There are two levels.
There is the level of what we THINK is right - And there is the level of what we can FIND is right.
(We can say it like that).

You don't find a chooser in the activity - That's clear to you.
And you said:
Yes, in my visual experience I will see a hand and a arm rise and 'nothing made that happen' or 'something made that happen' is the speculation by thought which arises afterwards.
Yes, so if I talk about thought being 'conventional' . . . we might think / suggest 'I am choosing or I am making that happen' . . . or we might suggest 'I am NOT choosing or I am NOT making that happen'.
There is nothing wrong with either of these statements in a conventional every-day way.

But this guidance is for you to see . . . that's all it is! It's just thoughts and ideas SUGGESTING what is going on. It's the very thoughts themselves that create the illusion. Generally, the illusion is that there is a REAL separate self making it happen, but no such REAL self is found.

In the exercise no chooser was found.
So there is no inherent self choosing. There is no inherent self making it happen.
That's the important realisation.
(Inherent means . . . of itself . . . outside of thoughts . . . We can see that thoughts themselves MAKE the illusion).

Don't worry if this is a little much to take in - It's fine. You've got the essentials of this guidance and you are doing really well!
Does it mean that my life for the most part is predetermined and will be unfolded without any other input ?
Most part? How about all of it?
But you are suggesting 'my life' . . . what exactly is that? What is it that 'has a life' or 'is living a life'?

That might take a big of digesting, but let's move to thoughts now - Imagination can also be treated in the same way.

Think a thought or imagine an object - Anything will do.
Now inquire just as you have been doing - This exercise is the same as all the rest.

1) In the experience of having that thought or experience of imagining the object, can anything other than 'the current thought' or 'the current imagined object' be found?
2) In the experience do you find two things? A thinker / imaginer as one thing, and the thought and imagined object as the other thing? Or is there just 'a thought' or 'an imagined object'.
3) What's making that thought appear? What is choosing what to think?
4) Is there any choice or control over thinking and imagining AT ALL?

Xain ♥

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ms127
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Mon May 01, 2017 2:30 am

Hello Xain,

A note - I will be out till Thursday this week on a Business training workshop.
1) In the experience of having that thought or experience of imagining the object, can anything other than 'the current thought' or 'the current imagined object' be found?
No,in the experience of having thought only current thought is found.
2) In the experience do you find two things? A thinker / imaginer as one thing, and the thought and imagined object as the other thing? Or is there just 'a thought' or 'an imagined object'.
In the experience of having thought, there is just a thought. A thinker and the thought as other thing is not found.
3) What's making that thought appear? What is choosing what to think?
'What makes thought appear' cannot be determined. 'What is choosing' what to think' also cannot be determined .

4) Is there any choice or control over thinking and imagining AT ALL?

There is no choice over thinking or imagining.

Still trying to get a perspective on this. As mentioned, I will be attending Business training on Management skills and resolving conflicts this week. If there no 'I found, then who ultimately will acquire skills .. or rather who has been acquiring skills and receiving knowledge since childhood. Is it the body/brain accumulating knowledge and responding to events ?

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Mon May 01, 2017 10:33 am

Hi Manish
If there no 'I found, then who ultimately will acquire skills .
Your question (again) assumes that there is a 'who'.
You tell me . . . in the thought 'I am going to acquire a new skill' . . . what does the word 'I' point to?
Can that one be found in the immediate experience here and now?
or rather who has been acquiring skills and receiving knowledge since childhood
You tell me.
In the thought 'I've been acquiring skills since childhood', what does the word 'I' point to?
Can that one be found in the immediate experience here and now?

You mention 'childhood' and that raises the belief of 'a person living a life'.
Who or what is 'living a life' right now?
Is it the body/brain accumulating knowledge and responding to events ?
We did an entire range of exercises looking to see if a body or brain was experience or thinking or choosing or controlling or . . . well . . . absolutely anything at all! What did you find?

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Sat May 06, 2017 2:36 am

Hello Xain,
You mention 'childhood' and that raises the belief of 'a person living a life'.
Who or what is 'living a life' right now?
What did you find?
In my immediate experience, no "I" is found, but still trying to understand it conceptually. I am struggling to find answer to this.

Can no action be done consciously with free will and does everything just unfolds ? An athlete practices and applies himself consciously. He performs intentional, planned and calculated actions to win the Olympics. When a skill is learned over a period of time and applied consciously, how does it happen? How does it all work? Who learns the skills over a period of time.
Who chooses to say or not to say certain things in certain situations ?

Appreciate your time to respond to my questions. These questions have been burning inside me.

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Sat May 06, 2017 9:54 am

Hi Manish

The original guidelines which you agreed to were:
> Please try to reply at least once per day - This maintains a momentum in the guiding which is important. If you know you won't be able to reply for a few days, just let me know beforehand - It's ok
But it's been five days since your last reply.
In my immediate experience, no "I" is found, but still trying to understand it conceptually.
What is the 'I' that is trying to understand that there is no 'I'?
Can no action be done consciously with free will and does everything just unfolds?
You tell me. We did the exercise on choice and control. What was discovered?
An athlete practices and applies himself consciously
Go out and do some running or exercise.
Now try to locate what chose to do that. Try to locate what is making the body move and do the various exercises.
When a skill is learned over a period of time and applied consciously, how does it happen?
Watch an YouTube video and learn to do something new.
Now try to locate the 'I' that learned it.
Also, what 'I' was watching the YouTube video.
What 'I' chose to do any of this?
Appreciate your time to respond to my questions. These questions have been burning inside me.
For five days :-)
You need to reply each day to build a momentum in the guidance. If you don't, you are likely to slip back into the mental / thought stuff like you are doing here.

Ignore other people - You can only know your own experience.

Xain ♥

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ms127
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Sat May 06, 2017 5:31 pm

Hello Xain,

Looks like there is some confusion I had mentioned in my post that I will be out in training as below. I had to go to
other country for a training workshop.
Post by ms127 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:30 pm
Hello Xain,

A note - I will be out till Thursday this week on a Business training workshop,
I totally understand the need for momentum. Life is taking me to all the places now and there will be some more breaks. Probably this not the right time for guidance for me and it will be best to end it.
I will continue to visit this wonderful site and try to continue journey (so to speak) myself at my pace.

Cannot thank you enough for your time. I sincerely appreciate your help and guidance so far. Hope to pass through the Gate less Gate one day.

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Sat May 06, 2017 7:23 pm

Hi Manish

Sorry, yes of course - I forgot that you had messaged me.

All the best
Xain ♥

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Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Mon May 08, 2017 9:19 am

I wish you success with your on-going journey.

This marks the end of this guidance thread.

Xain ♥


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