MS- Absence of Self

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ms127
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MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:21 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It means that there is no Real self that is experiencing this world. The self is an illusion created by our false conditioning from our environment.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for some resources and direction to walk this path of realization. I am also hoping to get answers to my open questions that conflict with my understanding and also hoping to get guidance on direct realization.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
It will be helpful if some one can guide me to realize that there is no self. I have doubts that are preventing me from the inquiry. I also need some direction as to know how consistently perform the inquiry and be with it in day today life.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have no real experience in the spiritual practice. However, I have been listening to spiritual teachings of some of the teachers in You tube ( Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sadhguru)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:34 pm

Hi ms127 - Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

My name is Xain, and I am a guide here - Do you have a preferred name I can call you in our chat?
The self is an illusion created by our false conditioning from our environment.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
The thing is, the conditioning is so deep and reinforced by circular beliefs and misperceptions which is why it is difficult to 'break through'.
I am looking for some resources and direction to walk this path of realization. I am also hoping to get answers to my open questions that conflict with my understanding and also hoping to get guidance on direct realization.
Good.
The guidance here is for one thing only, and that is to guide you to realise that there is no inherent self, no real 'I'.
There never has been - There never will be - Even right now, there is no real 'I'.

Do you have any other expectations about this guidance or what you might expect life to be like 'after'?
Do you have any fears or concerns.
I also need some direction as to know how consistently perform the inquiry and be with it in day today life.
Sure - That's possible.
Although we can talk about practises and inquiries, it's worth mentioning that when realisation occurs, it is clear there is no real person 'going through a day-to-day life' or 'performing a practise'.
However, I have been listening to spiritual teachings of some of the teachers in You tube ( Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sadhguru)
Good stuff - All very wise individuals . . . each approaching the subject from slightly different angles.

This is just a brief chat before guiding begins.
Other than the questions I ask, do you have any questions of your own you'd like addressing before we start?

I look forward to hearing from you
Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:31 pm

Hi Xain,

Thanks for choosing to guide me and appreciate your response. Please call me “Mani”.

I have just started this journey (so to speak) to realize no –self , so please bear with me if the questions are too elementary.

I work for a Business company which strives to take me to leadership positions. I have regular self-assessments reviews and subsequent leadership training which identifies opportunities for self-growth. The whole emphasis is on the image, self-perception and one’s perception and control over the team.
On the other hand, I do want to realize ‘no self ‘. I being new to this cannot reconcile around what I hear and practice at work versus what I really want to realize ( no-self). It somehow feels to contradict it and I cannot wrap my mind around it. I fear that I will not be able to perform my regular duties or it will impact it in some negative way.

My second question also relate to the same fear .
I sometimes feel that my anxiety and worries as self, although drives me crazy sometimes, but it least keeps me on top of everything. With the realization of absence of self , will I have drive to plan for my future. Currently my job requires me to plan ahead, anticipate problems and be on top of everything. Will my perspective change with this realization?

I will really appreciate your response and guidance on this

Best wishes
Mani

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:01 pm

Hi Mani
I being new to this cannot reconcile around what I hear and practice at work versus what I really want to realize ( no-self). It somehow feels to contradict it and I cannot wrap my mind around it. I fear that I will not be able to perform my regular duties or it will impact it in some negative way.
I understand your concerns - It is understandable, and quite common.

Your question is based on a belief that something will change - Something will go from being one way, to become another way. Let me assure you that this will not happen. All that will happen is that you will realise something.
You and your business company work will continue as always - In fact, there is a small chance that the work will become easier, more spontaneous and natural to some degree for you.

When you think about your work, you believe there there is a real you (an inherent self) doing it. That is your current belief. You will realise that this is not true - There has never been a real 'you' doing the work - It has all been an illusion caused by circular referenced thoughts and misperceptions.
With the realization of absence of self , will I have drive to plan for my future.
Planning will go on just as it always has. Nothing will change.
Your work with your business and your colleagues will go on as normal.
The only thing that will happen is that you will realise something.

Some people have ideas about pliss, permanent peace or happiness, ending mental suffering etc
Some of these might be attained but only as a pleasant side-effects of this realisation, and not directly because of it. In fact, each persons realisation is different. It cannot be estimated what will happen 'after' and it's important to try to put expectations to one side other than the realisation we are heading for as our goal.

How does that sound?

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:32 pm

Hello Xain,

Thank you for taking time to respond and guide me through the process.

At times, I had tried to turn my attention to the sensations and present moment, but those moment quickly evaporate and the thought process and the routine takes over.

Can you please elaborate how should I explore no-self ? Do I need to devote a specific time of the day or it can be practiced day today activities .

I’m looking forward to this exploration.

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:42 pm

Hi again Manish
Can you please elaborate how should I explore no-self ? Do I need to devote a specific time of the day or it can be practiced day today activities .
Well . . . I will guide you on this forum.
I will give you some questions to answer which I will require you to answer from what you can find in your own experience in that moment (and not pre-conceived ideas or beliefs).
If there is confusion along the way we can explore it, and I'll try to explain things to assist you.

Just to clarify once more, this guidance is for one thing only - And that is to get you to a position where it is 100% clear that there is no inherent self - There is no 'real you' - There never has been and never will be.
Please put aside anything you've heard about 'what it was like for other people' - This is your guidance only, and shouldn't be compared with what you might have heard or read.

Some further pointers before we begin:

> Be completely honest with me, and yourself.
> Most of the guidance I will ask you what you can FIND, not what you THINK might be going on.
If you find yourself analysing or thinking what the correct answer is, you are not answering from what you can find.
> The more determined you are to see this through, the more likely you are to achieve it.
> Put aside all non-dual beliefs, spiritual, religious, scientific and medical knowledge. Approach this whole thing as simply as possible from basic principles.
> Please try to reply at least once per day - This maintains a momentum in the guiding which is important. If you know you won't be able to reply for a few days, just let me know beforehand - It's ok.

Oh . . . in order to reply 'in quotes' like I have done, a guide for that process is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Any further questions? Or are you ready to start?

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:15 pm

Any further questions? Or are you ready to start?
Absolutely Ready. Eagerly looking forward to the exploration.
Thank you for taking time to respond.

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Ok, Manish - Great!

Let's begin by getting established what we are referring to when talk about 'I' or 'myself'.

As mentioned in the pointers section of my last reply (and I won't harp on about this) but the guidance isn't about fancy non-dual beliefs or spiritual stuff - This is very much 'grass roots' level - A really simple basic level of who or what you believe you are.

For example, do you truly believe that right now you are a person looking at a screen and reading words off it?
As simple as that. No fancy stuff. Does that belief appear true for you?

Perhaps 'I' refers to the body - The body is doing the seeing . . . the body is hearing sounds around it . . . the body is feeling the chair or seat that it is sat in. The body performs the sensing of the outside world.
Perhaps 'I' refers to a controller over the body. 'I move my arms', 'I move my hands when typing'.
Perhaps 'I' chooses and decides - 'I chose to begin guidance at LU', 'I will be deciding what to type in a reply to you'.
Perhaps 'I' thinks and experiences those thoughts - 'I am thinking what to say', 'I had an idea yesterday', 'Right now I am seeing an object in my imagination'.

Those are a few pointers which I believe most people would agree with. Maybe they ring true for you?
What do you think? Feel free to elaborate on any aspect if you need to.

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:07 am

Hello Xain,

For me, ‘I' refers to someone inside the head, who thinks and controls all the action. Strangely enough, for me, somehow 'I' does not refer to the body.
Occasionally when I see myself in mirror, I do not identify with the body in the mirror (not in a negative way). Not sure if it is common. I sometimes feel totally dis-identified with the body.

'I' refers to the person inside the head who thinks, talks to itself and make decisions constantly. It is not the person who is reading, but the person inside the head who interprets its meaning and sometimes gets lost in thoughts even while reading the book. It occasionally gets worried and is anxious about all the events in life.

I hope I am making myself clear.

Best Wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:16 am

I hope I am making myself clear.
Sure.

Just sit for a moment.
Examine your experience directly in the immediate moment.
Is it completely clear that there is no 'I' experiencing at this precise moment. That experience is not personal?
Is it completely clear that the body is not experiencing the outside world?
(Essentially, It is the difference between 'I am experiencing' and 'There is experience').

There is no 'I' seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting.
There body is not seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting.
The content of thoughts that arise might suggest these things are true but what do you get from examination of your experience?
Please be honest.

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:57 am

Hello Xain,
Examine your experience directly in the immediate moment.
Is it completely clear that there is no 'I' experiencing at this precise moment. That experience is not personal?
Is it completely clear that the body is not experiencing the outside world?

I can feel my sensations in the body - feeling the chair, touch of the key board, pain in the foot. I sense the far away traffic noise. All the sensations are generated within my body . Body is experiencing sensations only.
However seems like there is something else inside experiencing it . Experience generates a thought regarding the experience and then series of thoughts take over.
The experience somehow looks personal to me.
The content of thoughts that arise might suggest these things are true but what do you get from examination of your experience?
Looks like content of thought is pretty much what is there to thought . The content of thought generates more thoughts and generates emotions and real sensations in the body . Examining the content of my thoughts of my intense experience generates emotions.

Looking forward for your guidance .

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:25 am

Hi Manish
The content of thought generates more thoughts and generates emotions and real sensations in the body . Examining the content of my thoughts of my intense experience generates emotions.
Yes, I understand.
If I remember a negative experience, that might generate anger or sadness emotions.
But that's a little too much for us to examine in one go - We'd need to break it down into parts in order to study it.
For example.
The 'I' that is thinking the thought.
The 'I' that had the negative experience.
The 'I' that feels a negative feeling in the body.
The 'I' that has become 'angry' or 'sad'.
I can feel my sensations in the body - feeling the chair, touch of the key board, pain in the foot. I sense the far away traffic noise. All the sensations are generated within my body . Body is experiencing sensations only.
Let's take things one stage at a time. We can look at 'body is experiencing'.
This is the biggest 'pull' for the idea that 'I am this body' (because it is assumed the body is experiencing the outside world - Hence 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc).

This first exercise is a very basic one that I start off with.
I do this to attempt to 'focus' you to answer from what can be FOUND (or possibly NOT found) rather than THINKING what the correct answer might be, or going to medical, scientific or spiritual beliefs.

We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on it's own.

Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'black'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or clouds going on - It really doesn't matter. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:36 am

Hello Xain,


1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Absolutely right. I experienced the blackness all around very near to my eyes - surrounded all over

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
There is nothing else in seeing other than the Blackness . This is the only experience that existed at that moment.
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
Only the experience of seeing the blackness is found. It is the plain simple experience and there is no witness/witnessing to be found.
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
With my eyes closed, I can just witness the blackness. The experience is of simple seeing. At this moment, there no pair of eyes or a person to be found.

However, as soon as I open my eyes, something in me realized that I just experienced seeing 'blackness' .

Appreciate this exercise . It gave me a perspective.

Best wishes
Manish

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Xain
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby Xain » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:10 pm

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Absolutely right. I experienced the blackness all around very near to my eyes
So there were two things you found then. 1) Blackness and 2) Eyes that the blackness was near.
Is that right?
However, as soon as I open my eyes, something in me realized that I just experienced seeing 'blackness' .
When you say 'something in me' where exactly is that location?

Xain ♥

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ms127
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Re: MS- Absence of Self

Postby ms127 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:19 am

HI Xain,
So there were two things you found then. 1) Blackness and 2) Eyes that the blackness was near.
Is that right?
I could see Blackness . Within the Blackness I could see darker boundary of Eye Pupil. As per your definition, it was just the Blackness.
When you say 'something in me' where exactly is that location?
I tried to focus on the location. I couldn't find or sense the location in the body. The best I can explain is that it is a thought of the experience I just had.

Appreciate your time.

Best wishes
Manish


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