Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:25 pm

Some days there's more of a me than others. It seems like me is a life long habit that is dying hard. The days I read or listen to stuff about this are better than the days I don't. Maybe it depends on the company I keep? I spend a lot of my time with other "me"s. Very recently I've seen through the self thing and it's just life happening but then a day later BANG! I'm back and I'm heavier than ever. Should I be trying to develop new habits to help see through the old one?

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6163
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:31 pm

hi Trevor, interesting... what would you say that this 'me' is? what are the other mes? and what exactly has been seen recently?
see, habits are like clothes, we wear them until we don't. it's not exactly that we have to fight them, just see them as they are. :)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:47 pm

This me is a believing of and reaction to thoughts. Before I can question, doubt or even see the thought as thoughts coming from nowhere, owned by no-one they're believed and reacted to. Which then creates a momentum, a chain reaction of further thoughts upon those thoughts that are also believed and then in turn reacted to. Reacted to emotionally, physically verbally. That's why I referred to it as a habit. It's so ingrained it just happens if I'm not attentive.

The other "me"s I mentioned are just other people around me who also believe and react to thoughts about themselves as if there are separate entities.

Recently there were experiences of peace and simplicity which occurred after I'd been reading stuff about non duality which I took to be experiences of life without a self. But then yesterday I got out of bed the wrong side and it seemed like I was back to square one again with a me, myself and I all getting sad and angry with each other. Whenever this happens it feels like there is always a tiny knowing that doesn't believe it but is powerless to do anything about it. It just watches me feeling sad and unhappy but is powerless to intervene.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6163
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:56 pm

thank you for answer. believing is like a habit, yes, and same reactions to same stuff too. but once the pattern is broken, once it's really seen, that there is nothing behind that word me, there is no more sticking place for the beliefs to attach and they start falling off.

tell me precisely, what feeling' thoughts come up, when you let this thought in
there is no self at all, no me in any shape or form in reality, none as in zero.

just write what comes up..
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:38 pm

When I let the thought 'there is no self at all, no me in any shape or form in reality, none as in zero' in there is relief because this is what 'I' want.

There is a yearning to believe this, to feel it. To know it. To unequivocally see it plain and simple as the obvious truth.

There is a twinge of fear. Fear of losing something. But then on closer inspection there is nothing to lose anything but worry and anxiety.

There is the thought 'what would life be like then without a self?' A sort of silly circular thought of how will I cope if there is no self at all? What will happen to me and my life if I realise, if it is true that there is no self? This is circular nonsense but it's there until it's looked at and then it goes. And then comes back.

I feel a tingling in my throat and in my solar plexus when I read 'there is no self at all, no me in any shape or form in reality, none as in zero.' As if these feelings in the solar plexus and in the throat are my self that denies this. I think I am suddenly aware of my body as if this is the root of the belief in a separate self. When the idea that there is no self is entertained then I feel the body more as if it is protesting 'what do you mean I don't exist?' 'Feel this!'

It seems as though that there is no self at all, no me in any shape or form is something that has to be seen again and again not just once and for all because of this habit of believing the opposite. There is an overdraft with my name on it, a passport and a plane to catch tomorrow afternoon and all these things generate feelings in the body and thoughts in the mind.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6163
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:29 pm

Oh, this is great! You really took time and looked properly, thank you for that.

Now. There is no self at all already and life is going on perfectly, nothing is gonna change here, because it's already the case. Consider how as a kid you got ( or not, but you can imagine) to believe that there is this Santa that brings present to all kids. When you find out that it's you parents, does life change? It's only a belief that is dropped and I bet you could never argue that Santa was real.

What happened to Santa at that point?
What happened to the kid?
Can it ever be believed again or is one time seeing enough to pierce the illusion for good?

How would life be without self? How is it now- an overdraft, a passport and a plane. Hihi.

The fear, the resistance is pointing the way. What is it protecting?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:28 pm

Life without a self would perhaps be exactly the same as life without santa. No need to worry about hanging up a sock anymore. Gifts may still arrive but they will come from someone else. But I wonder if I want life without a self to be different. I wonder if I want life without a self to be the answer to all my suffering. I want to be rid of the belief that there is a will that can control my experience. I want rid of feeling that sometimes I can make choices. And sometimes I am powerless to choose even if I want to.

It's a bit like learning to ride a bike I just cant relax and trust that something knows how to ride it and I wont fall over. Life now with an overdraft and a plane to catch etc is fine apart from the nagging bubbling energy in my stomach which I label fear. Life is perfect now apart from the thoughts that I can make better or worse decisions. The fear that I can get things right or wrong. There's a selfing going on to protect me. Fear seems to be the motor, the energy supply of me, of the sense of a separate individual. But its a circular argument. The belief in self is there to protect the self but without the belief in self there's no self to protect. There's a fear if I lose my me I will lose my house and end up in a debtor's prison. I want rid of this fear - thats what I want life without a self to be like. This fear I guess is protecting this "me" and the things that belong to "me" like house, family, money, reputation. The fear is protecting itself in a way. The fear and the me are identical.

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:34 pm

To answer your earlier questions. Nothing happened to santa because santa was just a shared, agreed upon idea that referred to nothing outside of the idea. Nothing happened to the kid that used to believe santa was real. He still hung his sock up, he still got given presents they still.came from santa he just knew they came from mum and dad now. The kid just had one belief less now.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6163
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:29 pm

nice one, Trevor.

i'd like you to bring the fear up and observe it as a mechanism. it is doing it's job perfectly and is a loyal friend and protector. can you look a the fear itself, how it works, where it feels in the body, ask it to come closer. check that raw feeling, is it personal? ask it what is it protecting, what is it that it does not want you to find out. Bow to it. thank it and look behind the fear as if you would be taking a peek with curiosity. what is behind?

write what comes up..
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:58 pm

The fear is a bubbling tickling energy in my stomach, solar plexus, chest and throat. It is not personal, it comes and goes like weather. It is protecting the physical body. It's like an early warning alarm in a cockpit that goes off when it thinks I am losing altitude or something. It wants me to check that everything is still on course. Until I check that everything is on course it keeps on. It is protecting the sense of a separate thing that can do better or worse.
I think the fear doesnt want me to find out that I am not the body or any of the stories I have about myself, it doesnt want me to find out I am not my body, the feelings in the body, the reflection in the mirror, I am not my job, my reputation, my money, the person my friends think I am, my experiences. What I am cannot do better or worse. But the stories of what I am can. The story of who I am can have more or less money, I can have good or bad health, good or bad relations with those close to me. I dont know why the fear doesnt want me to find out what its protecting. Because it is seen that it's not necessary. As for what is behind the fear.... Nothing. Or just horror stories about the fear. I'm fearful because I don't want to embarass myself by being poor. Which is just a story about fear. Behind these stories of fear there is nothing. Trevor is a story of thoughts and memories, habits. Sometimes, it's a nice story and sometimes (too often) it's a fearful story. Behind it is nothing. Death perhaps. I am writing this on a plane during turbulence and the fear of death just happened. It's gone now. What would have died? Or what will die? A body. Memories in the mind. A story will go no further and be forgotten. I think death is just another word for fear actually. Im not frightened of death I'm frightened of being very very frightened. So behind fear is nothing. Nothing is what it doesnt want me to see. It doesnt want me to see that fear is just fear and there is nothing holy or special about it.

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:37 pm

When the plane went into turbulence and then later when it came in to land I noticed fear and contractions in my body. Fear and muscle clenching when the plane wobbled and the desire to look out of the window as it came in land as if something needed to have the illusion of control over the plane. So then behind the fear was the need for control. I couldn't relax and let the plane fly or land without my little body uselessly contracting and tensing and looking out the window checking on what's happening. But then once out of the turbulence and then back on the runway this was all instantly gone.

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:42 pm

Reading Philip's dialogue with you from your book did something. There was a little burst in my chest and I thought I was going to sob uncontrollably in public on the bus at the realisation of total enlightenment. But I didn't. I sobbed controllably and briefly. One sob in fact but there was this keen sense of lightness that I've read people mention and it's been around on and off all day so far. Physically I actually don't feel so good - I have a stomach bug but nevertheless there is a lightness to experience. This could be down to the fact that I'm travelling in a new city and am out of my routine patterns. But back to the topic, right now, peaking behind the fear there is nothing here, nothing personal but a sense of lightness and gentle ease and some nausea. Everything is very quiet, simple and empty.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6163
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:31 pm

Great work Trevor, I see this enquiry is unfolding for you perfectly, it includes real life situations like turbulence so that you could experience fear and work through it.

Great to hear that there is this opening of lightness in the middle of uncomfortable physical situation.


So let's look at the story now.
Can you see Trevor as a main character? If you look at story of Trevor from different points of view, is it the same story?
Let's say from the eyes of trevor's mum, friend, bank manager, somebody he just met on a plane, etc. is there a core to story of trevor? Is there a rea/ true story? How does it change over time and how does it depend on mood?
Just get into observing the narrative and see what story comes up here.

Have fun with that.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Trevor
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Trevor » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:11 pm

I can see Trevor as a main character. As a boyfriend, as a son, a brother, a friend, a comedian, a bank account holder. They're all slightly different stories. Depending on who you ask it is not the same story. But from Trevor's point of view it is the same story in a way - all these roles generate anxiety as to how well I am performing them. There is an ongoing narration as to how good a boyfriend, comedian, friend, person, I am. It's the story of "Am I doing this well enough?"

There is an automatic narration/running commentary which happens spontaneously from time to time. An inner voice that labels, describes, judges experience in terms of the life story of Trevor. There's often an attempt to label, describe and judge whatever experience is occurring presently in the context the greater narrative of the life of trevor and to judge whether what is happening now is a good thing or a bad thing. Often whether what is happening is judged good or bad can completely alter the whole judgement of the whole back story of Trevor and the projected future of the story. So if I'm having a bad day that means that the whole of my life that led up to this bad day must also necessarily be bad, otherwise how could it have been a good life if it all led up to this terrible cold rainy afternoon of sadness? There is a clear seeing that this is dependent on mood. All the so called facts of my life can be the same from one day to the next but if my mood is different then one day I'm content and the next although nothing has changed, I'm depressed.

The story is being rewritten and revised as it goes along. There is a worry about how the story will continue in the future. There's a sense of agency too. A sense that Trevor is responsible for his story and he needs to make efforts to keep the story/description of Trevor on track and positive. Or that he should but he is somehow unable to.

I've always found it amusing how differently people perceive and describe the story of Trevor. The tempting solution to the question of what is the real core of the story of Trevor is to look for the characteristics that overlap from everyone's descriptions of him. But even if there was an meaningful overlap between my mother and my bank manger's descriptions these descriptions are so clearly empty of anything essential. Whether we're describing Trevor or an elephant or a birthday cake it is clear that the description is not Trevor or the elephant. But neither is any perception or experience of Trevor or an elephant the essential core. Trevor is not just what he looks like, what he smells like, what he says, his memories..... but at the same time he is just what he looks like, what he smells like, what he says, his memories. There is no definitive gold kernel of soul essence to be found anywhere. There are just the descriptions of all the different aspects or components, none of them essential. Even if we just agreed on Trevor's own description of Trevor there would be nothing behind it.

There is no core to the story. Or the core to the story is the subjective experience of the present moment which is prior to all story and probably the same for everyone. Just the simple knowledge of existence.

It's always been the case that what Trevor's girlfriend, parents, best friends, bank manager and random strangers think about Trevor informs Trevor's own judgement of Trevor. But what has Trevor's own judgement got to do with Trevor? Because when Trevor looks for Trevor beyond these various descriptions and judgements he finds nothing but a simple sense of being alive. Ah! but when he forgets to look beyond.....

When I read my bank statements or reviews of my show, there was always a sense of ease or anxiety depending on what was written. There has also been an understanding that what is written in the statement or in reviews does not really effect 'me' but nevertheless it has a power over how 'my life' will go, over the quality of my experience, over the story of Trevor.

The story of Trevor can go a hundred different ways, all at the same time depending on who you ask, and depending on when you ask Trevor, yet there is no real core to Trevor. There can be terrible bank statements and reviews and awful complaints from my girlfriend and loved ones and they all refer to nothing essential. That is they may cause "unpleasant" feelings in my solar plexus and stomach, thoughts of regret, self pity and rage but beyond these feelings nothing.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6163
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is The Self Like A Bad Habit?

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:20 pm

brilliant. thank you again for taking time and having a proper look.

so tell me now, were do thoughts come from? can story by controlled? do you know what the next thought gonna be? do you know how story will go tomorrow, or day after?

is there a thinker?
is there a creator of a story?
is there an actor playing Trevor?

is there any control that 'i' has over what is going on and what is going to happen.

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests