Sophie, welcome here.

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Elizabeth
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Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:41 pm

Hi Sophie,
Welcome to the forum. We have been chatting a bit on email and I shall put up a couple of excerpts to start here:
E:
What will animate/motivate the I if the I doesn't believe anymore to "its" story?
That is the crossover question at Gate, for many.
And it is one you can easily answer today.

The key word here is belief.
First, Sophie, tell me what is a belief?
Look at it very careful from all sides and see if you can find a reality of any kind in a belief.
Write down any belief you can know, 100 percent! no doubt! that is true. Please let me know if you find any.

Second for real, in your direct experience, see what has been moving everything all along.
And watch for that 'thing' as you move about your day, reach for the cup, turn the head...
Sometimes this helps if you do something very slow, or very fast.
See the movement as it happens, and watch when the I thought comes in to say "I did that!" Did the I do it, or is that an unquestioned belief, as Byron Katie would say?

Much love, dear Sophie. Will be an interesting day :-)

Sophie:
what has been moving everything all along: Here it's big questioning...If not the I, which "energy" moves me?

Completely no answer even if watching me: well, a succession of desires, frustations, anger...well basic emotions crossing me all over the day with a major tendancy to stay/maintain confort. Much time only for filling physical needs and also psychological needs in my relationship...(companion and daughter)

...I'am stuck on that.....well I go on and early morning come back to you again with some ideas...maybe...

Love and Joy,

Thanks to be there!

E:
So far you have detected thought and emotion, but no one driving the body.
As the thoughts come up, maybe check to see how many are about an "I" (they use words like me, you, should, and must), and how many are simply thoughts about processes, like, 'remember to buy the milk.'
How many I thoughts are really needed?

S:
.study means for me what we are doing now (normally I do my preferate activities: some readings, dharma pratice, contemplating: early morning I have the feeling to garden my self...
..But since there no self to be gardened, what is gardening, THAT is gardening THAT would say!!!

Eating my cracker a few minutes ago and using THAT, if "I" am THAT, THAT had stangely the feeling THAT it was eating THAT-SELF...!
If THAT dissolves into THAT, THAT being anywhere, THAT becomes THAT is around.

I 'am realizing (intellectually) the famous upanishad saying: TAT TVAM ASI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi

The meaning of this saying is that the Self - in its original, pure, primordial state - is wholly or partially identifiable or identical with the Ultimate Reality that is the ground and origin of all phenomena.
Major Vedantic schools offer different interpretations of the phrase:

Advaita - absolute equality of 'tat', the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, and 'tvam', the Self, Jiva.
Shuddhadvaita - oneness in "essence" between 'tat' and individual self; but 'tat' is the whole and self is a part.
Vishishtadvaita - identity of individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat', Brahman.
Dvaitadvaita - equal non-difference and difference between the individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

At this moment, i feel aligned with this definition:

Dvaitadvaita - equal non-difference and difference between the individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

As concerning BELIEF, sure I really believe creeds like "caring for the planet is good"...Being really connected with Nature
(well, to a certain level cause i just heard in my head: is that true?), I try not to waste food, water, consuming less...
But this morning, THAT finish something in the plate with no desire to finish it but only with the thought "Don't waste it": THAT clearly identified the belief and I heard: who cares?...
..."I" was really shocked..Hey!!!!....How possible!
I identified a very little fear pointing its head saying : will you become "wild", "crazy"...but THAT could see it was a thought, I just answered as would do Betty: I don't believe it. THAT don't believe to it.
THAT is not believing to the I neither (I guess) and can make a fool of it, isnt'it?

This morning i found all THAT very interesting (still on the intellect mode as you see...), maybe we could copy our chat and go on on the english side of the One o One for other users?

Well, who is expressing THAT, some ego/I hidden under no?
Back again,

Just to add that after i wrote the e-mail below, I entered the "normal life" with phone calls to do, e-mails to reply to...and then I realized later that I am like on an "auto-pilot", the identity Sophie is the doer...I would say now that I need a functional 'I" to take in charge the everyday life and this "I" cannot help having a personnality.

Or should I go on thinking of me as a THAT?

Well, all this sounds so curious in fact!

E:
to give Sophie something else to do,
'I need an I to be a functional do-er. '
What is an I? Can you find a self anywhere except in thoughts of Sophie?

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Sophie » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:18 am

I VIRUS

Dear Elizabeth!

At the very moment, I'am just under the amazement of the clariry of Ilona's post about I VIRUS:

[url][/url http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2010/10/save-me.html]

Yes, I'am infected...and I can feel perfectly when it happened for me!!!

All is so clear, more and more clear as evidence. To copy/paste the link, I had to scroll down again trough Ilona's posts that I have still not read and I +THAT just feel soooooooooo excited!

Enlightenement, liberation?...I don't care now what's the name of it, a deep longing of all my being (including the I) is willing to GO BACK HOME.
It's the term that popped up maybe day before yesterday cause it's the feeling i have of it.

As a hypnotherapist, i have used the symbol of computer and desinstalling a program...that's really efficient.

Can try to go myself in hypnosis and desinstall my I program?...

I feel myself playful now as if THAT is sure I will be gone soon and I want to enjoy the process fully without hast, tension, frustations.
Elizabeth, is that the I whispering me this attitude to stay a bit longer?

Much Love and gratitude for your pointing!
S
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:14 pm

Hi Sophie, apologies, the internet is very unhappy with the weather here.

I love that you are reading and discovering and running the new through what you know. It is a process of both discovery and subtraction, paradox all the way.
"E:
to give Sophie something else to do,
'I need an I to be a functional do-er. '
What is an I? Can you find a self anywhere except in thoughts of Sophie?"

What is an I? For a you, a Sophie? How did she grow?
Was there ever not an I? And life was still living?

Much love, E.

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Funny Dream of Superman, Super-me!

Postby Sophie » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:54 am

Hi Elizabeth,

Oh God, I made such a funny dream this morning that I posted in english on my french blog:
http://coeur-eveil.blogspot.com/

I think it comes up in the night cause yesterday i inquired with Katie Byron 4th questions this belief:
"I need an "I" to pursue the story of Sophie".
The process revealed my "controlling soldier" to refer to Lori Ann article:
http://theawakeneddreamer.com/2012/01/1 ... -they-can/

I'am impatient to read your comments!
Love...and Fun in the process (after all, why not?)
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:00 pm

Hi, Sophie,
So your functional do-er is a good soldier, protecting you from the world.

Tell me about this self that protects a you.
1/Are there really two of them, one a fictional soldier, and a "real" you?
2/Can it be that you are walking around with two separate entities in your head?
3/What makes one real and one not real?
4/How did you get two? Are there more?

I see you have a lot of energy, Sophie, that is a good thing for this process, when you can focus it like a laser on what is asked of you. With this energy, focus, and 100% honesty, we can go very fast.
So, the questions above, use them to shine a light on your unquestioned thoughts. Take each one and look very directly inside for the answer. Nothing secondhand. LOOK, as we say :-)
You are up for this? We can play hard!
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Sophie » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:16 am

Dear Elizabeth,

Sorry i was away from home this last 2 days...

Some beginning of answers:
1/ I don't feel there is 2 entities...it's the same taking different shapes...The dream represented it like that and it greatly helped to show the belief in a fictional me taking for himself the results of all actions.
As the Bhagavad gita says:" you're responsible of the actions, not of the fruits of the actions"
The dream shows that i act but the fruits are rippen by a belief called me. This belief has strenghened with time, society and conditioning until becoming absolutely real like stone.

2/ I also understood from some posts that the point is TO BE LIVED instead of cultivating the I LIVE. I have a good experience with dancing thanks to Osho saying that it's good to let the energy of dance "possess" us without thinking of an I, an image dancing. When i applied it, I just became a good dancer, free of othesr judgments and mostly letting my body expressing the energy and not interfering with the mind.

3/ Just learned from this reading http://networkedblogs.com/tA94J that the awakening is seeing and it's unfolding in time wheter i was imagining a drastic shift. Well, still some doubts roaming around that point.

Well, that's all for today but i had another dream tonight: while dreaming, I heard myself saying: "I don't believe that" and i woke up!
Hope it's annoucing the same realisation when I'am awake!!!!

Much love and a big hug,
S
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:02 pm

Ah, good work. Welcome back.
Yes, the self is a shapechanger. Interesting about the fruits.
I am glad you dance, we may use that.

I am going to be very simple again. We are building something here.

1/ the cup in front of you, is it more true to say, it is A CUP, or is it a MY CUP?
2/ Where does the MY come from? In how many ways does a self possess or attach an "I" to places, objects, people, even situations? As you go about the day, look at how many thoughts possess life, and how.
3/ Look carefully. where does a thought come from? Can you control thoughts?
4/ Is there a reason the self is a shapechanger?

It's a lot of work but I see you capable. I am interested in the answers also!
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Sophie » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:33 am

Hello!

1/ a cup is a cup, it's for a period of time My cup for language habit to say my instead of the cup

3/ I cannot control thoughts but ignore or follow thoughts. They Come from the filter called "Sophie" and her interaction with the environment.

I visualize this morning the flow of life strong and powerful uphill and a thin water flood downhill who has totally lost its strengh. The damp/water derivation was "Sophie", the belief system called Sophie who decided on the way what is good/bad for her. I felt really weird (like even disgusted...) to realize that maybe the system is not running for my well-being: here we come back to I virus idea exposed earlier...

If I take out the filter "Sophie", the water should freely again find its own way to express itself...without my idea of Self...
As on the video I posted on your wall, will I return to the Source/void/creation?
Joke: will i change of auto-pilot?...Life is auto-pilot and Sophie co-pilot or no more co-pilot?
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:11 pm

Hi Sophie,
I love your questions, some I will answer as they point to Gate, and others you will answer yourself after seeing, if you still care to do it :-) Let's get focused now that you have answered, we look even closer.

Yup, a cup is possessed at least partly by language, and more!
1/ If I try to take your car, what happens next? How is the thought about possessing things revealed in the wider world? How deep is that support for owning?

I will ask you to look at thoughts again:

2/As you do the exercise and look where an I is attached, you will probably have to slow down a bit.
Even move a little more slowly.
Just so you can watch the thoughts that arise as you move.
Like this: Your hand reaches for a cup or a jar. Watch it. Be aware of where the thoughts come in to posses the action. If there is a story attached (I cracked that cup, I am so clumsy, I am late with the order, I need to move faster), and then move on. Next action, look at WHEN the thought comes up as the movement happens. Note WHEN the I thought comes up.

3/ Is every thought an I thought?

This is very focused meditative exercise, done in real world, no need to change your life in any way.
It has almost all the information in it that you will need to move towards Gate. We will be doing it a lot as this conversation continues.
If you do this for the next day, and tell me how you see it, it will already be very interesting!
Remember, this is direct and practical method. We tried the other methods and they have not worked, so don't worry if it seems less than glamorous.
I raise a cup to you from here, Sophie, very slowly :-)
Love.

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Sophie » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:03 pm

OK, I like clear instructions since my main default confirmed by the ones who know me is I'am scatered, speaking very fast, very enthusiastic and impatient too!!!!!!!
God, I've been animating a sangha from the teachings of Thich Nhat han based on being in the present in total full consciousness. Eating slowly, walking slowly, speaking mindfully...So, I've practiced going slow and it"s a pleasure to do the exercices you propose for the week end.
I don't know if feeling excited is "normal" at this stage but it's the way i feel about this experience.
I'am happy you're at my side. I trust you.
Beautiful week-end!
Sophie
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:36 pm

Good week end to you.
Maybe look out the window to see if your car is still there :-) It's part of the exercise on how does a self possess things.

So glad we are on the same page. Slowing things down for us quick people is usually hard, but you are already slowing, and looking at the thoughts as a practice. Very nice congruence!
Now we look and see how the I thought is coming in, and where, so we slow down so the thoughts are not zipping by too fast. Wonder how slow we can get?
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Sophie » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:10 am

First observation from my morning session:
It's total anarchy, thoughts pretty much in advance on body. I quikly realised i'am d-synchronised !
Finally, i remembered the Heartmath cardiac coherence technique http://www.heartmath.org/
and it was necesary to do the exercice again...how possible to have forgotten this excellent exercise i was using before any coaching session.
I feel better now and it's going to be more easy to reply to what is really an enigma for me: when the thoughts come up?...they come up all the time. I think i need to examine the process much closer...Hummm
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:41 pm

Hi Sophie,
Good, not possible to stress the importance of looking at where the I is attaching to the thoughts. And how many thoughts!
So, however you slow the process down so you can have a little space to see them as they come up, that is good.
Oh, is the car still there?
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Sophie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:48 am

Just a short sum up of how I feel after this week-end of exercice: I feel less concerned about my thought flow. less "ready to believe", and (as a consequence?) less emotionnally detached to what would move me before...kind of more lucid...and maybe more centered and lpeaceful.
I felt i have not found the I saturday...
But clearly yesterday in the sangha when a lady said "I want to thank..": suddenly, I felt that something wanted to be thanked inside, a deeply desire of recognition popped up...this the I ?..
The I came out suddenly in the light, well is it the I or just a desire somewhere or the belief from "Sophie-virus" that Sophie needs being praised, acknowledge by others?

Let's go on!
Love and Love,
S
Ce "je" qui n'existait pas avant la naissance de votre corps et qui disparaîtra à sa mort, ce "je" limité par le temps, vous le considérez comme acquis. Transcendez les concepts et soyez sans idées."
Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Sophie, welcome here.

Postby Elizabeth » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Hi Sophie,
Good, we don't want to get rid of thoughts, just get to where we can observe the flow and take some notes. So we can question some assumptions.
Good question: this thing that wants to be noticed, is this the I?
Yes, and it is probably easier to say to you " what is NOT the I?"
As you are looking at thoughts, look at how many of them say me, mine, yours (not mine), ours (mine and yours) and I.
There is almost nothing that you can see that does not attach to the center of your world, an I in the head. In reality, we know we are not so important!
But we are watching our thoughts. You can tell me, how much of the world in your head centers around an I?
And why would that be? What purpose does it serve? Is it really a Sophie virus?
Such a mystery!
Love, Elizabeth


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