Stop the search

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Fri May 27, 2016 9:52 pm

Hi Mark,

The feelings of anger is usually felt in the chest. Maybe a tightening E, also there is a very "sense" of presence. But I know this is T as I cannot find this person directly as a separate person. I think , well I conclude then that there is no person.

I honestly cannot describe this person. There is no person. I just find that when there is a rejection of what is happening there seems to be a duality. There seems to be something that is not liking what is happening. I don't know what this force is.

Regarding the locations of objects and sensations, I understand that everything is felt here and not out there. I see that T objectifies things and assumes that the objects are out there. I see then nothing is what it seems to be.

The objects in the room are E in me but T makes an assumption that they are Away from me.if I think I am the body then objects are away from me. but the body is also an object that "appears" in me just like flower appears in me.

There is no E of being confused. Well I don't know how to describe it physically. I cannot feel anything in particular.
I can tell I am a control freak! Like I need to know everything.
This is not easy for me to face but I am coming to the conclusion that I will never find anything. I am looking and looking for something to "reveal" itself that would put my mind to rest but I don't think that will ever happen.

I don't know why my mind is not at rest, and why I don't feel complete. Not that completeness feels like anything, I don't think it does but I would expect my mind to be calm and no questions would arise. I don't think I will ever find an answer.

Thank you

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Sat May 28, 2016 4:37 am

HI Claudia,

Thanks for that honesty.
This is not easy for me to face but I am coming to the conclusion that I will never find anything. I am looking and looking for something to "reveal" itself that would put my mind to rest but I don't think that will ever happen.
Remember what we said right at the beginning of this dialogue:-
we are not looking into getting into any new state, nor getting anything new; we are simply looking into what already is, always has ben , and can only ever be the case.
Is this OK? Is it OK not to have answers? Can 'having answers' be let go of, in favour of experiencing this alive moment?
Please let me know what comes up (E) when you read and consider this.
there is a very "sense" of presence. But I know this is T as I cannot find this person directly as a separate person.
Claudia, is it possible that this 'sense of presence' (or I might use the word 'aliveness', or we might use many different words, trying to grope at this 'sense'), is it possible that this sense is here, withOUT there being any individual? That the 'individual' has just been assumed to be there (T)?
I don't know why my mind is not at rest, and why I don't feel complete.
Will thinking EVER be at rest, when it is trying to navigate and control life? Can it be allowed to relax (NOW!!!) and just go into a subordinate role, eg finding money in the purse for the shopping, remembering the route to work etc?

Finally today I would like you to report on what, if anything, has changed since the beginning of our dialogue?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Sat May 28, 2016 11:42 pm

Hi Mark,

Is it ok not to have answers?
Sometimes it is.. Other days not really.

Can "having answers " be let go of, in favour of experiencing this alive moment?
Slowly but yes.

What comes up when reading this E?
Peace! This Alive moment feels peaceful. Before T comes up with expectation, old negative thoughts, wants etc.

Is it possible that the sense of presence is here, without there being an individual?
In a way yes. If I let go of T then only the present moment, this presence is here. But it is hard not to believe the T when they come up. Then if feels like the individual is here. And this is what I don't get. I know that this presence , the present moment, this aliveness just Is and wants nothing from life, it just is, it has no wants or desires etc, BUT life is not just like that. There is this force who wants to change things, who wants the moment to be different.
You said before that this force does not exist. I am yet unable to process this.

Because Mark if I could choose, God I wouldn't want this force to appear. If I could choose I would be happy all the time with whatever life brought. But I cannot say that this is true. I cannot say that.
Even if it does not exist why do I have this wants, why do I suffer?

I don't think it would be right for me to just think: oh this I just don't exist ( and in a way I cannot find it as an object) and be ok with it, do you understand me here? This would just be me lying to myself.

"Will thinking EVER be at rest when it is trying to control life?
This is beautiful.

1) thinking will Always try to control life in order to be ok - BUT why?? Why can't it just be ok???
2) should I just ignore my thinking then?? Even tho I want things to be different, should I just ignore it because is just T talking?

What has changed since the beginning of our dialogue?
You have helped me a lot to investigate who this I is. Does it actually exist? In a way I know it does not exist because I cannot find it BUT I feel it's effects. By this I mean, this I manifests in my life as my likes and dislikes, I then act upon this T, get the feelings that the T brings in the body.
You really make me question everything.. And this has helped me.


Thanks Mark

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Sun May 29, 2016 5:41 am

HI Claudia,

Thanks for that response.
There is this force who wants to change things, who wants the moment to be different.
You said before that this force does not exist. I am yet unable to process this.
Please show me where I have ever said that 'this force does not exist'? My role is not to teach you anything, only to point so that you look for yourself.
I don't think it would be right for me to just think: oh this I just don't exist ( and in a way I cannot find it as an object) and be ok with it, do you understand me here? This would just be me lying to myself.
Isn't it exactly the other way around? ie the thought 'I exist' happens (T). Where is the foundation in EXPERIENCE (E) for this thought? Please show me where this 'I' is in experience (E), other than simply deduced (T)?
I cannot find it BUT I feel it's effects. By this I mean, this I manifests in my life as my likes and dislikes
So please show me where "I" can take autonomous credit for ONE dislike or ONE like? Where that 'like' or 'dislike' can be taken out from the rest of the flow of life and be attributed to 'autonomous I'? One example please.

Can you look back (in memory (T).. calling the event to the present moment (E)) to what seemed like an important decision in your life, and look into all the elements of this happening. Compare it to the mountain stream. Can you find one seminal choice-point, which can be separated out from all the elements, where "I made that choice" autonomously?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Sun May 29, 2016 11:32 am

Hi Mark,

An example of where this I manifests as a like or dislike:
If all there is this moment, this experientially E felt experience, by this I mean, right at this very moment, there is fingers typing E, sounds of cars E, a T about a me typing an email.

I see that this T is assuming a person because if this is what is happening, T is just like talking about the moment.. Just commenting on the moment.. There is no need for it as it is not going to change the situation but still it comes Up and takes ownership of what is happening.

This is what I mean by the present moment. whatever is happening at any time.

Now, there are times for example when as always there is only the present and yet there is this "force" that Is not ok with the moment. It wants and wishes it was doing something else. then there is discomfort. Like a contraction between what is happening and the desired moment, which this force thinks will be better than the present.

THIS IS what I don't get!!!!!
If there is just the present why is it not ok with itself??
You lead me to see that the T does not exist but is simply assumed. And by my direct experience I can confirm it. You did not teach it to me you only showed me what already is the case.

BUt I have just gave you an example of when a dislike takes control of the situation. I say take control because I want to change the moment and usually I go and do something else. until this forces appears again, and I follow it and change the moment once again,

I don't know if you can see what I am pointing to :(

thank you

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Sun May 29, 2016 12:11 pm

Hi Claudia,

Thanks for that.
I don't know if you can see what I am pointing to :(
Yes, I do.
Seems that if someone stands next to you shouting 'you are ugly you are ugly you are ugly' there are two things which can happen:-
1. Run away to where the voice is not heard.
2. Know that it's not true and carry on exactly as you are doing.
So...
T is just like talking about the moment.. Just commenting on the moment.. There is no need for it as it is not going to change the situation but still it comes Up and takes ownership of what is happening.
Does it really take ownership? Can thoughts really take anything, or can they only comment?
Do thoughts EVER need to be believed?

We talked about expectations right at the beginning, but please consider the following and let me know what comes up in your sensations (E) as well as answering the questions: 1. does a ever have to be believed? 2. Does a thought ever itself truly control anything? 3. Can a thought ever do anything except comment, make a claim etc?

If there is an urge there or a pull to continue to live in a thought-nagivated experience, that is FINE, there is no need to persuade you to do otherwise. But if there is a move to respond to the invitation to come out of your thoughts and come to your senses, then fine, everything changes (and nothing!).

Here's another invitation to do a little exercise, in order to look further into thoughts: when you wake up in the morning, notice the first thought that comes up, and note it down. Does it need to be believed? Is it controlling anything or only commenting on things? Then, how about the next thought? How about the first thought over breakfast?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Sun May 29, 2016 7:15 pm

Hi Mark,

Beautiful day here today :) warm, blue skies.. Just perfect :)

No T does not take ownership of anything. That is clear. It only comes up after the situation, on while it is happening and it comments" I am typing an email". It goes on As if it is doing it and it is telling me it is doing it.. But I don't need it to tell me anything thing. it is obvious that I am trying an email. It just appears saying "I am typing an email".

thoughts don't need to be believed in. thoughts can speak all they want, but if there is no audience they just vanish.

No, thoughts do not control anything. they simply comment on things. That is all.

Mark I really want to see through this illusion.

The T that come up when I wake up: that's funny, again they only comment, and project. That is all. I have done this exercise before. When I open my eyes, the first T appears " I am awake" - it is obvious that I am awake but it still comments on it. I stand up and go downstairs..the only thing happening is me walking.. But already there are thoughts about the day ahead.. I am not even in work yet, but the T are already commenting on work, on how stressful is going to be or maybe not etc..

Thank you :)

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Mon May 30, 2016 5:49 am

HI Cllaudia

Thanks for that response.
Mark I really want to see through this illusion.
a) How do you know it's not already seen through?
b) What is there there to 'see through' anything? What is there except for 'THIS", the aliveness of this moment?

You have not done the exercise proposed in my post of 29th May:-
Can you look back (in memory (T).. calling the event to the present moment (E)) to what seemed like an important decision in your life, and look into all the elements of this happening. Compare it to the mountain stream. Can you find one seminal choice-point, which can be separated out from all the elements, where "I made that choice" autonomously?
Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Mon May 30, 2016 8:31 am

Hi Mark,

How do I know that the illusion was not seen through ?

- there is still this force, this unpleasant force that wants things to be different than the way they are.
- I am not yet at rest with THIS moment.

I still think that there is something to be seen through.
I don't know how it is to be free, but I'd imagine your mind would be still? You would know that there is nothing to gain or lose here? So you would be ok with whatever is happening.

Ok when I look back in time, when I first decided to move from Portugal to here.
First I evaluated the facts - I don't think the mountain stream had that capacity. The mountain stream simply was moved by the elements , it does have the capacity to evaluate anything. To think what is better for itself. So right here it does look like I have a choice.

At the time, I was "bored" with life in Portugal. I wanted to see something new.
I wanted to study, learn the language, meet new people- ok so these factors influenced my choice- here I can compare it to the mountain stream. I did not create these, I was influenced by these to make the choice.

But all the way through this choice making process there was a feeling of wanting something better in the future.

Mark, is there any book? Or anyone you recommend me listening to ? That could help me?

Did you ever read any books?
What has helped you in your process?


Thanks

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Mon May 30, 2016 9:39 am

Hi Claudia,

Thanks for those considerations.

It seems as though there maybe is not a readiness JUST to LOOK at present? More to think your way to this. If this is the case then there are many books that can be read. There is a list of BOOKS in the menu at LU. If you want to do this, please then set aside our exploration for now, and come back to it when you are ready just to LOOK.

This was our agreement at the beginning:-
A few guidelines: look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed. Please set aside any other teachings (including reading, listening to talks etc) and spiritual practices during our inquiry together (other than a daily meditation or yoga). Please give all your attention to this investigation. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?
So, either THIS exploration, or go and read some books and come back to this later. Please let me know which you feel more drawn to.

Cheers and a hug

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Mon May 30, 2016 1:03 pm

hi Mark,

I've read books for years and it never worked..

I want to continue the investigation.. I just don't want to waste your time.. I see that this is taking time..
If you think that I am not ready, we can stop it but in the meantime what could I do?!

Thank you

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Tue May 31, 2016 4:44 am

HI Claudia
- there is still this force, this unpleasant force that wants things to be different than the way they are.
- I am not yet at rest with THIS moment.
I still think that there is something to be seen through.
I don't know how it is to be free, but I'd imagine your mind would be still? You would know that there is nothing to gain or lose here? So you would be ok with whatever is happening.
Are these (T) or (E)?

What comes up when you read the following:- 'THIS IS IT'?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Tue May 31, 2016 10:54 pm

Hi Mark,
I am not yet at rest with THIS moment.
I still think that there is something to be seen through.
I don't know how it is to be free, but I'd imagine your mind would be still? You would know that there is nothing to gain or lose here? So you would be ok with whatever is happening.
Are these (T) or (E)?
most of it is T. God what I am waiting for?!
I don't know. I just dont feel at rest. But feeling not a rest, does not have much of an impact on the body. Not that I can notice and report to you. It seem all mental pain. Mental discomfort. Mental suffering.
What comes up when you read the following:- 'THIS IS IT'?
when I read this somehow I am more sensible to all the E happening. Everytime you ask me this its like I direct my attention from the Thoughts into all I can experience physically. It feels peaceful. I dont know why I do this, it happens. I think that all the exercises we did before where we explore all the T and E, I got the impression that none of the T were true. It is like T are magical thinking and not reality.

I dont know how to describe peace in terms of physical sensations E.

But like a good 80% of my day are spent in T. Habitual reactions. Habitual actions. A constant protection of this "me". Actions to make this " me" feel ok. When this "me" feels attacked, then it reacts to protect its self image. I dont know why I have this need to protect this "me".

I realise this. Most of my time is spent in T and not in actual E. Except of course when I am working. here I give full attention to the work I am doing but STILL I can see, I am aware of the mind engaging in thoughts as if they are happening. But nothing in T is really happening. Nothing!!!!!!!

Thank you for sticking with me.

All my love
Claudia

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:19 am

HI Claudia

Thanks for that.
I don't know how it is to be free, but I'd imagine your mind would be still? You would know that there is nothing to gain or lose here? So you would be ok with whatever is happening.
Where does this expectation come from (that the mind would be still)? Please have a look: something you read, or heard? I'd like you to look really carefully into any sensations which come up (E) when you consider this.
God what I am waiting for?!
Thanks for the compliment but you can just call me Mark. By the way, YES, what ARE you waiting for? What is it exactly that you are waiting for that is not already HERE in THIS moment? Please ponder this carefully and let me know.
I don't know. I just dont feel at rest. But feeling not a rest, does not have much of an impact on the body. Not that I can notice and report to you. It seem all mental pain. Mental discomfort. Mental suffering.
THere are two possibilities here: 1. this is just a thought expectation (T), or 2. there is felt discomfort (E). Please look really carefully. If there is felt discomfort or any sensations at all, please describe them. If it is thought expectation, please look into what this expectation is that this moment should somehow be different from how it is.

Is there any move at all to make friends with this moment just AS IT IS?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:42 pm

Ola Mark,

You asked where does the expectation come from that the mind should be still.

I don't know if you read the introductory note I left about myself. A few years ago I had what I now call an "awakening experience". At the time I had no idea about what the word enlightenment even meant. But I had this experience and then searched the internet and read about spirituality. What I could see during the experience was that there was no one other than me. This was how I put it. I felt at home. It was like I had discovered the mystery of life. I can't say I was "happy". It was beyond that. It was something I had never experienced before. I was just at home. I felt complete! By this I mean, there was nothing I wanted from the moment itself. There was nothing that could happen that could disturb that feeling. I could even die that it wouldn't change one bit. I remember looking at people around me and thinking how can I even communicate this. There was nothing to say but there was something there. I remember thinking that if people would realise this it would cancel anyone's suffering.

then after a few days, I don't know.. It was like the old conditioning kicked in, and ever since I have been trying to achieve that again. In a way I know that there is nothing I can do, but I can't let go. I know that I live a "fake" life. There is more to life that this "me".

With you I am seeing that this "me" does not exist as an independent identity. Which in a way I relate to my experience. For a moment there was no me AT All.

When you ask what is missing here in this moment?
Nothing is missing. There is only this sense that something is missing. I also don't know how to approach this. I am looking and looking and altought I can't find this separate me, this does not change the fact that I still see myself as separate. It feels like there is this person and separate from life, there is life happening. There seems to be two separate things. This person and the world.

There is no felt discomfort Mark.
This thought of expectation is also there because in a way, maybe because of the senses objecting everything, it is hard to see myself as part of this moment. I don't know how to explain this but, as I type this email, it is like I am here typing this email, and there is the sound over there from the other room. You have said before and I could see that it all happens in me, so it can't be separate from me. So maybe I need to analyse more close this sense perceptions. And what THIS moment really is. Does it happen in time? Is there time apart from me?

There is move to be friends with this moment, yes there is. But as long as I see this moment as separate from me, there will always be effort. I think the problem may lie there. I don't know what IS this moment? Actually is there a moment? In my mind there is. It makes IT into something. But I am starting to question this.

love
Claudia


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