Stop the search

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Fri May 20, 2016 5:40 pm

I am so sad to hear you're not well :(

I hope you get better soon!!

I will be thinking of you.

All my love

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Sat May 21, 2016 4:44 am

Hi Claudia,

Thanks for bearing with me.

Yes, just comment on the sensations of this moment.

If you are saying that you don't have any feelings, only thoughts (eg sadness as a thought), then are you suggesting that you are just a robot or a computer? Or that you can't easily find what the physical manifestations are (which is fine)? So anyway, just report on the physical sensations via the senses.

Thank you

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Sat May 21, 2016 11:06 pm

Hi Mark,

Nice to hear from you :) I hope you are feeling better my friend.

I don't know from where the I originates from. I think it just claims to have ownership of life etc, but I think this could be illusory.
The T is not apart from the totality of life, it appears as life. I don't think the individual originates thoughts or anything at all, it simply comments on things as they happen.

When you ask me to consider the sensations when I ponder on the fact that this me could be an illusion, the only thing I can report is so immediate that it makes it hard to describe. When I consider that this I does not exist, it's like this is it then.
Yes it is hard for me to notice the E in the body. I am not a robot or a computer but the only thing I can report is what is happening, sounds E, weight of my body E, smells E. And a sense of presence! Of being aware.

What are the sensations when I consider " not being happy with the moment" . The sensations are not different than breathing. There is nothing that comes up that I can report to you in the body.

The thought "I can make it better" - it is within the flow of life. It comes up as a any other thought comes up but it seams to have "substance" in it. Like I can actually change the situation.

I hope I have answered all the questions. Sorry about all the questions, I deserve the slap.

Also I am doing my best with the sensations E, to describe it to you Mark. I just don't find it easy to describe it. It seems to obvious to describe what I am seeing, tasting at each moment. When considering the questions those are the only E I can report. There is nothing in the body I can say. The only sensations in the body I can feel sometimes is when I am nervous ( heart beating faster), shy ( warm in the face), angry ( heart besting faster), but none of these happened when reading/pondering the questions I am asked.

All my love and gratitude,
Claudia Nunes

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Sun May 22, 2016 6:51 am

HI Claudia

Thanks for that response.
The thought "I can make it better" - it is within the flow of life. It comes up as a any other thought comes up but it seams to have "substance" in it. Like I can actually change the situation.
By, 'the thought seems to have substance', you don't mean that it is a feeling, you simply mean that you believe the thought, yes?

Yes please, as I keep saying, just report back from the sensations (you have at least 5 senses, just report back each of those, whatever feels alive, the qualities etc etc). You can also report back any tightness in the chest, faster heart beat, warm in the face etc, IF they come up.

I don't see where you have properly answered my post of 19th May, where I invited you, comparing it with the flowing of the mountain stream, to go through your day, looking for anything in the happenings of the day, where any 'separate Claudia' intervened into the rest of Life, OR where 'any Claudia' could choose the URGEs which governed apparent decisions or actions taken. Please could you do this and report back.

Don't forget to report back on all the sensations which arise as you consider these, and do them. (So interesting that you keep asking me to clarify what is meant by this... but that's fine).

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Sun May 22, 2016 12:04 pm

Hi Mark,

Did not understand the last part of the email: " so interesting that you keep asking me to clarify what is meant by this... But that's fine".

should I not ask when unsure about something so that I can answer properly knowing we are talking about the same thing?

"-The thought seems to have substance" - I only mean that I believe the thought, yes. I don't mean that it is a physical feeling.

This morning I went for a walk with my dog.. I could feel the feet touching the ground as I was walking E, the wind on my face E, know I hear the rain E.

As I was waking all that was happening was the feet moving E. Can I say there was no intention to walk? No. There was an intention as I thought about it. Claudia decided she was going to take the dog for a walk. Is that separate from life?
No, the only thing happening was the walk, and that is life. Nothing can be separate from life, because I am life! It' is impossible to separate anything from life. Life cannot not exist, because it is self revealing.

Right now what is happening is, sound of the bird E, typing of fingers E, Claudia Thinking what to do next T.

what I find too is that, when I directed my attention to the sound of the rain E, and I stay with that sound.. It happened that as I am hearing the rain E, thoughts come up, create a story, and without noticing, I am totally engaged. in the story in the head, AND the sound of the rain is in the background!!! It is like my primary experience was the thought, and the direct experience of the rain not of much relevance.

I am only describing what had just happened. As I compare this to the mountain stream, I see that as the water had no choice about which way to run down the mountain, I had no choice about the Thought that came up while I was simply noticing the direct experience of the rain!!! And this is where I struggle because, as I try to just be with what is happening (direct experience) I am distracted mentally. Thoughts come up that distract me and take me away from the present moment. Until I remember again to notice my direct experience.

thank you

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Sun May 22, 2016 12:34 pm

Thanks for that, Claudia.

Thanks for recording some of the (E)'s happening. Now each time, when you do it, look behind the labels (words) (=T) eg 'sound of the bird' for a moment, to the actual experience (E) behind those words. It will be hard to describe, but try anyway.
And this is where I struggle because, as I try to just be with what is happening (direct experience) I am distracted mentally. Thoughts come up that distract me and take me away from the present moment. Until I remember again to notice my direct experience.
And is that an independent 'Claudia' which is distracted? Can you find where that 'movement' is in anyway separate from the whole 'movement of Life'? Please let me know.

Don't forget that if you're wanting something better in "Claudia's experience" I cannot help you with that. Our investigation here is, as I said in my first post, only looking into what is only, can only and has always only ever been the case.

So, another day please looking for where any independent Claudia breaks into a world and changes anything. Or where the urges can be originated from any 'Claudia' or an intention can be truly attributed to any autonomous Claudia, other than in a fantasy called 'thought'? Some examples please, once you've had a good look.

Cheers

Mark

PS
should I not ask when unsure about something so that I can answer properly knowing we are talking about the same thing?
Sure, if you like. I said it's interesting .. but that it's fine. :-) x x
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Sun May 22, 2016 9:34 pm

Hi Mark,

The experience of the "sound of the bird" - the actual experience was "sound". thought added "of the bird" distancing me from the experience!! But I cannot be separated from the sound. As the sound happens, all that is experienced is the sound E, but thought comes is and says " I heard the sound".

You asked:
"And is that an independent Claudia which is distracted? "
I loved this question of yours!! With perfect clarity I can see that No! there was no independent Claudia that was distracted!!!! At that very moment, there was no one!! ONLY the distraction happening!!! Beautiful!
That movement was in no way separate from the whole movement of life!!! I remember being upset was I got distracted.. But then when you asked me if there was an independent Claudia I can see that no!! Why was I upset!?! Lol makes no sense now!

Mark I don't want anything better for Claudia!! I know that if I want I can get pleasure from the world. I know I change Claudius experience for the better momentarily!!! But that feeling of unsatisfaction remains!! It is like nothing can complete me! There is nothing I want in this world. The only thing I want is to be free. is to be happy with whatever is!!

I have tried the whole day to find this independent Claudia but I cannot. all there is to my experience, are the sensations from the senses.. And the thoughts popping in taking me to the past or future.

Thank you for the questions :)

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Mon May 23, 2016 5:54 am

Hi Claudia

Thanks for that. Nice work!!
The experience of the "sound of the bird" - the actual experience was "sound". thought added "of the bird" distancing me from the experience!! But I cannot be separated from the sound. As the sound happens, all that is experienced is the sound E, but thought comes is and says " I heard the sound".
So, "I", "bird", "heard", "sound" all = labels (T), right? What is the (E) behind the word 'sound'? Leave a pause, see what is felt, difficult to describe, but try, ok? Same with 'heard' (T).
But that feeling of unsatisfaction remains!! It is like nothing can complete me!
So interesting! How could something which does not exist EVER feel complete? How could it ever feel anything other than satisfactory?
But please answer this for me: sitting NOW right where you are, sensing all that is going on in (E): other than in (T) what is wrong with THIS MOMENT?
I have tried the whole day to find this independent Claudia but I cannot. all there is to my experience, are the sensations from the senses.. And the thoughts popping in taking me to the past or future.
And have you been able to find where this 'Claudia' is the independent originator of any of 'her' urges?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Mon May 23, 2016 11:04 pm

Hi Mark,
So, "I", "bird", "heard", "sound" all = labels (T), right? What is the (E) behind the word 'sound'? Leave a pause, see what is felt, difficult to describe, but try, ok? Same with 'heard' (T).
I is label yes. Bird was label yes as I did not see the bird. Heard I think was not label but actual experience. The same with sound. That was not a label. It was real. Would you say otherwise?
What is the (E) behind the word 'sound'?
there was nothing behind the sound apart from the experience of hearing.
what is felt?
I really dont know how to put this. What do feel when I hear a sound?! just a noise. Mark this seems to logical.. I dont know if I am missing something or if you are trying to lead me onto something that I am not actually getting. Could you please make some suggestions or what is it like for you? I know i have to see it for myself, but maybe i am missing something that it obvious.
How could something which does not exist EVER feel complete?
yes, how is that possible. Maybe this feeling of wanting to be complete is an expectation of mine. But as long as I have it the more distant I am from the truth. The truth is here now , the expectation is "hiding/covering" what already is by making it into a goal.
But please answer this for me: sitting NOW right where you are, sensing all that is going on in (E): other than in (T) what is wrong with THIS MOMENT?
Thank you for asking me this.
Nothing is wrong with this moment. I just have the feeling that I need to know something. But I know that wasn't the question!!!

Mark, does "things" "situation" any "object" have a beginning and an end for you?
I know this is a random question but, when you asked me before " was Claudia distracted" or "was the distraction part of the flow of life" - it was clear that I cannot put a beginning and an end to the flow of life. Life is.
When you asked "what is wrong with this moment" other than in T, its like nothing is wrong with the moment itself.. THIS MOMENT.. does it have a beginning? how does Thought fit into it? you dont have to answer.. i guess i am just reflecting..
And have you been able to find where this 'Claudia' is the independent originator of any of 'her' urges?
No I havent.. Claudia does not originate anything. The urge is just a feeling that appears..

I think a lot about you Mark during the day.. i think a lot about our conversations.. My heart is always so full of love when I think about all this work of yours.. all your compassion and patience for people like me and others.. You will change my life and I will be forever grateful. This probably came across wrong =) you are not going to change anything because nothing is wrong with my life, BUT you will make all the difference.

I hope that you don't loose hope in me..there are days when I think " I am never going to get it". I don't want to waste your time really.

Thank you for everything


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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Tue May 24, 2016 5:01 am

HI Claudia,

Thanks again for your response.
I is label yes. Bird was label yes as I did not see the bird. Heard I think was not label but actual experience. The same with sound. That was not a label. It was real. Would you say otherwise?
Can you find any word at all that is not a label (T)? Actually LOOK (not think, but LOOK) behind the label (E) to see what is the experience (E).
there was nothing behind the sound apart from the experience of hearing.
Try to have a look behind those words 'the experience of hearing' (or any other sensorial experience that is going on right now) and then to describe something of the quality of that (even though words are difficult, as they ARE labels, but try).

This investigation is really an invitation to get out of the head and come into the senses. To experience what is happening not through the mediator of thinking but DIRECTLY via the senses. If there is a readiness for that, great. If there is not, then fine also: a life lost in thoughts is also kinda fun in its own way.
it was clear that I cannot put a beginning and an end to the flow of life. Life is.
Nice observation!

So, Claudia, looking right now: what is the experience of being an independent individual? Can one actually be found? If so please describe that in your firsthand present experience.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Tue May 24, 2016 10:59 pm

Hi Mark,
Can you find any word at all that is not a label (T)? Actually LOOK (not think, but LOOK) behind the label (E) to see what is the experience (E).
I can see that everywhere I point there is an object. Every object is a label. Thoughts are labels. BUT, you got me thinking about something..

When you asked "what is behind every label" - I think is sensations. Sound: sensation felt in the body. Sight: sensation in the body etc etc

I am only confused on something: I can see then that "objects" "labels" are not separate from me. But this me seems to be localized here. Like there is a reference point. When I hear a sound, I can tell if the sound is far away or very close. What is this localisation?? If you say that the me does not exist, what is this reference point? Can you please say something about this.
Try to have a look behind those words 'the experience of hearing' (or any other sensorial experience that is going on right now) and then to describe something of the quality of that (even though words are difficult, as they ARE labels, but try).
The only thing I can describe are sensations in the body. Sounds, sights, smells etc are all sensation in the body. I am struggling here.. nothing else seems obvious to me. I am trying my best. Any suggestions on your part? am I missing something? just curious now: how on your experience would you describe the experience of hearing???
If there is not, then fine also: a life lost in thoughts is also kinda fun in its own way.
really =)?!? there is nothing fun about it.. lol if it was I would quit seeking now =) ahahah

ok back to work!!
So, Claudia, looking right now: what is the experience of being an independent individual? Can one actually be found? If so please describe that in your firsthand present experience.
No it cannot be found. All i can find as I mentioned earlier in this email is a point of reference! ( I would be grateful if you could comment on it). It was clear to me when you said "who was distracted" "was that independent from the flow of life"? In that moment it was clear that the only thing happening was a "distraction" but I cant even say " I was distracted" because the moment itself, the flow of life, is complete.. if its "distraction" that is completeness, because " who is being distracted if there is nothing or no one else"? the only thing I can think of is the "illusory self" wanting it to be different than what it was, and therefore "creating" a duality with the moment. what would you say to this?

By the way I hope you are feeling good Mark. I dont think I have asked you since.

Love to hear from you.. I am actually anxious to your next email.. what is he going to say =) am I on the right track!?!

all my love

P.S do you really answer to emails at around 5am?? every time I look at the time is always so early! you must love mornings! as far as I could gather you live in France? I dont know if I told you but I am from Portugal. But I travel to Nice for the summer =) I have family over there. Going this year again for 3 weeks !! ok.. sorry for this long email.

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Wed May 25, 2016 5:20 am

HI Claudia

Thanks for your response.

Looks as though a separate self cannot actually be found, only thought up, is that correct?
But that you have some questions which crop up about it all, right?

Just to remind you: I am not here to answer your questions, only to help you to look for yourself and see what is found.
I am only confused on something: I can see then that "objects" "labels" are not separate from me. But this me seems to be localized here. Like there is a reference point. When I hear a sound, I can tell if the sound is far away or very close. What is this localisation?? If you say that the me does not exist, what is this reference point? Can you please say something about this.
Ok, so notice a sound now (eg a car passing, a bird swinging). Is the sound experienced remotely or is it experienced 'right here'?
Are ear drums vibrating outside in the distance or are they vibrating right here?
Is the 'location' actually experienced (E) or is it assumed/decuded based on 'location information' or 'coordinates information' (T)?
Is an assumption made about there being a physical 3-d world 'out there', or is that world actually experienced?
Rather than trying to debate this logically, let me know what feels real, and don't forget to report on the sensations which come up.
the only thing I can think of is the "illusory self" wanting it to be different than what it was, and therefore "creating" a duality with the moment. what would you say to this?
Ok, if the little mountain stream is in fact a combination of all the environmental elements (eg meteorological, physical (condensation principle, gravity, friction etc etc), rather than being an autonomous entity in itself, how can it choose or want anything?
And if 'the illusory self' is in fact a combination of all the environmental elements (eg hot/cold, Life, cells dividing and growing, Portuguese culture etc etc), rather than being an autonomous entity in itself, how can it choose or want anything? (Or choose its urges?)

How does it feel to see that no independent self can be found? Please tell me from the last few days.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nunes
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Re: Stop the search

Postby Nunes » Wed May 25, 2016 6:49 pm

Hi Mark,
Just to remind you: I am not here to answer your questions, only to help you to look for yourself and see what is found.
I only ask because I get stuck on certain things. I thought that it could help me in my journey. I don't ask to have an "ideia" in mind. I know I need to see it for myself. But if you think this could hinder the process I will not ask anything and just stay with the doubt until it becomes clear.
Ok, so notice a sound now (eg a car passing, a bird swinging). Is the sound experienced remotely or is it experienced 'right here'?
it is experience right here.
Are ear drums vibrating outside in the distance or are they vibrating right here?
right here.
Is the 'location' actually experienced (E) or is it assumed/decuded based on 'location information' or 'coordinates information' (T)?
the location is not experinced but I know the difference between a sound (right next to me)
and a sound coming from outside. I dont even need to use my eyes. If someone is screaming next to me it is much louder than someone screaming at me from outside. I dont even need to use my eyes to know that the sound is not next to me. So there must be a reference point!!

I must have a location because everything that happens around me happens as a reference to me. I see my dog next to me, I hear the sound
away
from me and
close
to me. There is a difference in E. A sound next to me has a different quality than a sound away from me!
Is an assumption made about there being a physical 3-d world 'out there', or is that world actually experienced?
I dont think I am yet able to answer this question. I need to sort out the "reference point" experience.

I said:
the only thing I can think of is the "illusory self" wanting it to be different than what it was, and therefore "creating" a duality with the moment. what would you say to this
you said:
Ok, if the little mountain stream is in fact a combination of all the environmental elements (eg meteorological, physical (condensation principle, gravity, friction etc etc), rather than being an autonomous entity in itself, how can it choose or want anything?

I dont know how can it choose, but If I go by my direct experience I have experienced "anger" at that moment when I was trying to concentrate and pay attention to the present moment and on what was happening and suddently I was totally lost in thought. When I realised that my attention was not on my present experience but in Thought a feeling of anger arose. NOw, if I dont exist, who was angry? I dont know. If I dont have wants = who then wanted something at that precise moment? I dont know. What I know is what I felt and the feeling that arose. But if I dont exist who has noticed those feelings? i dont know.

I thought that the one who wanted it to be different caused all this but you just gave the example of the mountain and now I am totally lost.. I cant explain why those feelings happened then.
How does it feel to see that no independent self can be found? Please tell me from the last few days.
I am confused. Yes it cannot be found but feelings arise on its behalf.

Thanks

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Thu May 26, 2016 2:24 am

Hi Claudia
When I realised that my attention was not on my present experience but in Thought a feeling of anger arose. NOw, if I dont exist, who was angry?
Can you pinpoint exactly what are the sensations (E) of anger? (Maybe you have to bring that moment into the present moment in order to recall the anger). Is a person experienced (E), owning the anger? Or is a person assumed (T) owning the anger? Is it possible that there is just the experience of anger, and that the rest is assumptions? If there is the experience of an individual person, please describe all its sensations.
I must have a location because everything that happens around me happens as a reference to me. I see my dog next to me, I hear the sound
A little bit similar to the anger here, this reads very much like a mental deduction/reasoning (T) that there 'must be a location', rather than actually being part of the experience. Are you aware that two hi-fi speakers can simulate spatial positioning by delaying the sound slightly in one speaker compared to the other, and/or by making one speaker slightly louder than the other. Does this prove that a violin is actually behind the curtains? Or does it cleverly 'suggest' (T) a position behind the curtains. So, have another look: are the spatial coordinates part of the (T) (assumptions, deductions, interpretations), or are they actually part of the (E) ie actually happening? Is any of that experience NOT being received at the ear-drum location (as far as we know by biology and physics)?

Similarly, when you sit quietly and look at something 'across the room', there is a seeing experience, yes? But is 'positioning' of object information (T) or (E). It has always been assumed (T) and taught (T) that everything is out there, but is that actually part of the experience (E) or is it part of the interpretation? Choose an example, and let me know. We can look further into it if necessary.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: Stop the search

Postby ElPortal » Thu May 26, 2016 2:30 am

PS
I am confused
See whether you can describe, as exactly as possible, what is the present sensed experience (E) of 'confused'.
Does there NEED to be an 'I' to own "confused", or could there just be the sensations?
If 'confused' is happening, could 'confused' be ok in some way? Could it be ok to 'do confused' for a while?
Or must everything be under control? totally understood? (T)

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


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