Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Mon May 09, 2016 1:48 pm

Also, thank you so much for your time and effort in these thoughtful responses. I truly appreciate the time you're putting into this every day, Mark.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Mon May 09, 2016 1:50 pm

Also, I truly appreciate the time and effort you're putting into these thoughtful replies every day. Thanks so much, Mark.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Mon May 09, 2016 1:51 pm

Oops, thought that didn't post and ended up writing it twice.

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ElPortal
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Tue May 10, 2016 4:50 am

You are welcome
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Tue May 10, 2016 4:50 am

You are welcome ;-)
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Tue May 10, 2016 4:58 am

Hi Hursh,

Thanks for that response. We can look more into the location thing later. For now though, we have looked into the difference between direct experience (E) and the thought elements including labelling, assumptions etc (T). As you go about your daily life you can have fun simply noticing what is (T) and what is (E).

Now, before we go further, I invite you to look into any resistances which arise concerning this exploration. You probably read already the list of things which LU is not, but I will copy it below and what I am inviting you to do is just to pause over each item as you read it, and notice any sensations which occur in the body, reporting them back to me. It's really as simple as that. I am not asking for a reasoned argument over any of them (T), so much as a report of any physical, sensorial reaction in (E):-
1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
18. This is not a self improvement program.
Take your time.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Wed May 11, 2016 5:21 am

1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
Yes makes sense.

2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This feels weird and a bit confusing. I thought this was?
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
These all make sense and sit well.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
Uh, isn't seeing "truth" synonymous with this? This also feels strange.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
These also all sit well.
18. This is not a self improvement program.
This also feels weird. Isn't seeing truth improving myself?

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ElPortal
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Wed May 11, 2016 5:32 am

HI Hursh
I am not asking for a reasoned argument over any of them (T), so much as a report of any physical, sensorial reaction in (E):-
I am not asking for a reasoned response at this stage. Please could you revisit all of those, and report as I asked, noticing in as much detail as you can any physical/sensorial reaction?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Wed May 11, 2016 5:39 am

I did not get any visceral sensory or physical reaction from reading any of them, purely intellectual and inquisitive.

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ElPortal
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Wed May 11, 2016 5:47 am

Sure, Hursh, it's not actually necessary that there are physical reactions.

But please have a careful look (not just a really quick response).

So were you dead or alive? If alive, how did you know you were alive? No sensorial sensations at all?
I am inviting you here to notice carefully whatever comes up in the actual sensorial experience (E) as a major part of this dialogue.

Please take your time with this. No quick response. Have a really good honest look.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Tue May 17, 2016 11:27 pm

Hi Mark,

Huge apologies for the grossly delayed response. I have been procrastinating writing back and feeling guilty that I did not fully understand what to do (while also mulling over how best to approach this). I will try to be consistent in responses going forward.

I'll do the exercise again, this time writing down any sensations/experiences I'm having while I'm reading each point, not necessarily sensations that I think are because of each point, spending a minute or two on each item and recording the sensations.

--
1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
Chest tightening. Warmth/sweatiness on feet. Shoes around feet.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
Music hearing. Noticing phone next to my keyboard. Noticing text on screen.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
Sensation of fingers touching keys. Chest tightening, chest pressure.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
Back ache sensation. Breath-flowing-in-nose sensation.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
Music sound noticing. Chattering people noticing.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
Butt pressure against chair sensation. Back ache sensation.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
Eyes scratchy sensation.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
Breath flowing through nose sensation. Itchiness. Sensation of hand scratching head.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
Back ache. Voices chattering noise.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
Nose itching. Brow tight.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
Stomach pressure. More voices chattering.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
Relief emotion. Thigh against chair sensation.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
Back ache. Cold breeze on finger area sensation.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
Breath in mouth sensation. Music hearing.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
Stomach pressure sensation.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
Throat tightness. Back ache.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
Shoulder ache. Voices chattering. Right eye ache.
18. This is not a self improvement program.
Music hearing. Butt numbness against chair.

---

Thank you again for your patience and time, Mark.

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ElPortal
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Wed May 18, 2016 6:51 am

HI Hursh

That's a really excellent reply, well worth the wait. This diligence and honesty is just what is needed. So, as we go forward, I invite you to keep recording whatever instant sensorial reactions(E) come up, along with the actual answers to my questions.

Now an exercise, a really simple one:-

Stand up slowly and walk five paces across the room, observing carefully all that is happening.
Then turn around, walk five paces back, and slowly sit down.

In your actual sensed experience (E), as opposed to in thought assumptions (T), as you report on all that is experienced firsthand please let me know whether you can fine any real individual called 'Hursh' who is controlling all of that? Can you find an 'I the controller' in there, doing all that? Or does it feel more as though it's just happening?
Just report on what feels real.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Fri May 20, 2016 3:33 am

Experiences:

- Trousers-against-legs sensation
- Noticing door
- Noticing mirror
- Itchy hair sensation
- Breath-in-nose sensation
- Runny-nose sensation
- Floor pressing against feet sensation
- Noticing curtains
- Floor creaking sound
- Legs moving sensation

Hm it did feel like it was just happening when I was in the mode of focusing on and remembering the sensations. It's tough for me to say because I'm having lots of thoughts arguing with this but purely the sensations were just happening and I (?) was observing them.

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ElPortal
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ElPortal » Fri May 20, 2016 6:10 am

Hi Hursh

Thanks for that.

Please label each sensation with a (E) after it. You can also include some of the thoughts, if you like, as we did earlier, but list them as ' - the thought: "almost time to eat" (T)' etc so that the content of that thought can actually be looked at, rather than necessarily taken as real.
but purely the sensations were just happening and I (?) was observing them.
Am liking that '(?)' there. How is that 'I' that 'was observing them' actually experienced (E)? Is that anymore than a thought or assumption (E)?

Ok so another similar exercise. Sitting comfortably, slowly raise one forearm and hand up about a foot from the surface that it is on. Hold it in the air for a while and then slowly lower it again onto the surface. Repeat a couple of times, considering carefully all that seems to be going on.

Can a controller be found (E) controlling all of that?
Can a control centre be found (E)?
Did a controller decide which arm to raise and how long to hold it up?
Or did those things just happen?
What feels real as you consider those?
Again please report on all the sensations (E) which come up?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ha2
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Re: Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

Postby ha2 » Fri May 20, 2016 10:26 pm

Am liking that '(?)' there. How is that 'I' that 'was observing them' actually experienced (E)? Is that anymore than a thought or assumption (E)?
You're right, when I inspect it, it is a construction/assumption that I am observing rather than them just appearing.

--

(E) Air against hand sensation
(E) Moving hand sensation
(E) Upper back tight sensation
(E) laughing sound
(T) Who is that thought
(T) How old is she thought
(E) Tight head sensation
(E) Breath out sensation
(E) Hunger sensation
(T) I should write this thought
(T) I will forget this thought
(E) Rustling shirt sound
(E) Hand on thigh sensation

Oof, no, no controller during the exercise. It's irritating because there is correlation between thoughts and actions but I cannot find a controller, only sensations coming in. Hand goes up, other sensations come in, thought here or there (but sparse), hand moves down. Sensation, sensation, sensation.

Doesn't make sense to me. Something decided which hand to raise, no? But it did not feel like it - sensations just happened. My mind goes in circles about this.


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