Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh,

Thanks for that.

Mark: So where is the individual called 'Hursh'? Can such an entity actually be found in experience (E), or only as a thought story (T)?
Hursh: No, only as a thought story. It is a label given to one small piece of life.

When you say, ' it is a label given to one small piece of life', are there 'other pieces of life' except as thought stories? (T). In (E) what is there except for THIS experience?

How does it feel to see that there is no individual called 'Hursh' here? Please describe this as fully as you can, again reporting any differences since the beginning of our dialogue.

Remember at the beginning I said that we are not looking for any new state of being but:-

What we are talking about here is simply what is, what always has been, and what can only ever, be the case.

Are you ready to entertain the possibility that 'THIS IS ALREADY IT'? This, just as it is.
What comes up when you consider this?

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

In (E) what is there except for THIS experience?

I think I lost you here. What do you mean by "except for THIS experience"? As in what is there except for all the (E) sensations that come up?

When you say, ' it is a label given to one small piece of life', are there 'other pieces of life' except as thought stories? (T). In (E) what is there except for THIS experience?

Hm, I should have clarified my answer to your question - I was a little quick to answer "no". Sure, yes, the entity Hursh does exist, but it is an abstraction on top of this collection of atoms and life living itself to identify this body-thought complex.

Can such an entity actually be found in experience (E), or only as a thought story (T)?

In experience (E) we can find the body and its actions/tendencies that the mind and others label as Hursh. So in a sense Hursh does exist in experience.

I partly feel like I'm missing something - I lost you somewhere on the last jump to "no individual called 'Hursh'".

Thanks,

Hursh

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Ok let's look closely.

Mark: When you say, ' it .. ' (ie the label 'Hursh') ..'is a label given to one small piece of life', are there 'other pieces of life' except as thought stories? (T). In (E) what is there except for THIS experience?

Your reply 'it is a label given to one small piece of life' implies that there are other pieces of life, but where are these other pieces in experience? Can they be found except in the world of assumption/speculation/thought?

So, then, what is there except for THIS (this experience, which may have been labeled 'Hursh' or "Hursh's life' or 'Hursh's experience)? Does anything outside of this exist, except as a thought?

In experience (E) we can find the body and its actions/tendencies that the mind and others label as Hursh. So in a sense Hursh does exist in experience.

You say 'labelled as Hursh'. But where is any REAL individual called 'me'? Does it exist except as thought/labels? Please write me what is the actual experience of this individual?
Is it a body? If so please describe the experience of that?

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

ps take time with this, Hursh. Don't rush. Instead look deeply, consider carefully.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Also – I have been thinking about your stream analogy increasingly throughout the day. These two beliefs are slowly settling still but not fully there - I go in and out of feeling them as experientially true:

1) The body will simply move without the intervention of an autonomous entity
2) The body-mind that we call Hursh is a product and part of the environment - is life living itself - and is not under control of anything autonomous. Thoughts that claim this are faulty fabrications by the mind.

This one I still don't yet grasp as truth and am working with:

3) Thoughts are commentary on experience but cannot/do not affect experience.

It still feels to me that thoughts often affect the body/experience - although those thoughts themselves may be triggered by the environment and not by some autonomous "me".

[ElPortal]

Great!

[ha2]

So, then, what is there except for THIS (this experience, which may have been labeled 'Hursh' or "Hursh's life' or 'Hursh's experience)? Does anything outside of this exist, except as a thought?

There is experience (E) and thought (T). I (?) have not noticed anything beyond those two categories of events. "I" exists like any other entity, inside thoughts and corroborated by experience [E]. It is a label like "chair" or "hat" or everything else inside thought's interpretation of experience.

You say 'labelled as Hursh'. But where is any REAL individual called 'me'? Does it exist except as thought/labels? Please write me what is the actual experience of this individual?
Is it a body? If so please describe the experience of that?

I keep thinking about other teachers' point on "what is noticing the T/E?" But even that is a (T). In experience there is only (T) and (E). Huh... let me sit with this for a few days.

[ElPortal]

HI Hursh

Thanks for that.

I keep thinking about other teachers' point on "what is noticing the T/E?" But even that is a (T). In experience there is only (T) and (E). Huh... let me sit with this for a few days.

OK let me know once you have pondered this. Don't forget at the beginning of this dialogue we agreed to set aside all teachings. This is just about LOOKING for yourself.

Does anything outside of this exist, except as a thought?

You have not quite answered this question, so please spend a little longer with it. It has often been assumed that other things are happening (over there, behind, somewhere else etc..) and therefore this experience here (which has been labelled 'me' is just one small slice of the whole). What I am asking is whether you can actually find ( except as an assumption (T) ) any other slices of this supposed 'whole', or is THIS EXPERIENCE all that can be found? Hope that clarifies. Take time with this.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

I see it now (a few weeks ago, but haven't had the chance to response). Of course there is no "I". It is just life - this body is part of the environment around it, and there is only this - the now and the [E]s and [T]s. This truth was so clear and so obvious for a few hours and since faded away, but the memory of it remains and thoughts are clearly seen as thoughts and not reality. "I" is not reality, past is not reality, future is not reality - they are only [T]s. The [E]s see reality (this experience), and the [T]s add commentary on it. I go in and out of believing [T]s and seeing them for what they are, but it is getting easier. Really, really appreciate your help in seeing this, and much love,

Hursh

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh,

Good to hear from you and thanks for the update.

Do you want to continue the investigation? (and/or get admitted into the LU post-gate groups and forums?)

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Yes please! Either/both would be great.

Hursh

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Ok then. Just one thing to consider for now:

What are you responsible for, if anything?
What is there there to be responsible?
And what/who is there to be accountable TO?

Just let me know what comes up in actual firsthand experience when you consider those questions.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

Those questions don't make sense in reality - there is only being/experiencing. In thought there are responses but they are just thoughts and it feels like they exist in some corner of experience but are contained in a little box - see below.

"What are you responsible for?"

[T] "This question is silly"
[T] "I'm not doing enough"
[E] Chest constriction
[E] Irritation
[T] "I'm getting dragged back into identity"
[E] Eyes itching sensation
[E] Wind blowing sensation
...

Thanks,
Hursh

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Hehe, fine. Ok then, It is looking as though the illusion is being seen through here. If you have any further issues you want to raise please feel free to do so now. Otherwise, I will give you our summing-up questions. Please take your time with them and just answer them honestly and as fully as you can, from your present experience (i.e. practice rather than theory):-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now, just spontaneously, in the actual experience
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for?

6) Anything to add?

I look forward to hearing from you when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark.

[ha2]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Only in [T]. No, there was never a separate self. It truly is a marvel that it codifies so strongly and remains throughout our lives. Even in a few days of not believing those thoughts or dropping them as they come up, the sense of self starts to dissipate into doing/eating/living/walking - verbs. It's mind-blowing how many self-based thoughts must go through the mind on a minute-to-minute basis to maintain this illusion.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now, just spontaneously, in the actual experience

It's still here - but only a small part of experience and seen as thought. As mentioned, it feels like it lives in a little corner of experience - both creating thoughts and triggering sensations in the body (usually chest/throat tightening).

Self is a pattern of thoughts (for me/this mind, a lot of them are related to reliving the past or anticipating scenarios in the future - temporal reality is a huge trigger of self-ness). The illusion is built up by thought after thought, second after second of self-related thoughts. This feels so obvious now but crazy it was never seen before (and, in fact, still believed now in times of stress or when the thoughts are overpowering).

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels both more mundane and more profound than what it seemed like it would be. Mundane because nothing has changed. The same thoughts and same constructed identity still exist in experience. Profound because it's possible to zoom out of them into experience and understand they aren't truth. They're fictional products of the mind and do not reflect reality. There is still a lot of getting sucked into daydreams but the trigger to zoom back out is getting faster and faster, and when the daydreams/reminiscing/regret/worry/anticipation stops being believed, there is instant peace.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Huh, not sure. I remember I was daydreaming about what it would be like to be incredibly rich. Then the thought came "well, would another rich person in the world really make a difference to the world/reality"? Then "wait... my reality is not the same as reality's reality. In reality and the grand scheme of things, there would be just another rich human." Then "huh... I'm just another human". Then "wait... what is 'me' then?". Then it began...

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for?

Hm this part still doesn't fully make sense. There is no real me, just thoughts in patterns. But it still feels in experience like those thoughts affect action, and those actions affect experience. There is no real me to worry, anticipate, feel guilty, etc but there is still a pattern of more tactical thoughts ("What should I eat for lunch?") that affect action. So it seems in experience that yes, thoughts in experience do decide, intend, chose action but there's no "me" there doing it and the thought that things need to or should be a certain way are nonsensical (the idea of "control" also is nonsensical). There is only what is - this experience.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you for this! It's been a truly enjoyable journey and I'm excited for the future. My focus still goes in and out in believing thought as truth and zooming out into experience (and seeing thought for what it is), but I assume this just takes practice.

Hursh