Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Nice work!

Something decided which hand to raise, no?

Is that (T) or (E)?

So what you appear to be saying is that - so far - a self cannot actually experienced, only surmised. Eg
the sensations:-

(E) Air against hand sensation
(E) Moving hand sensation
(E) Upper back tight sensation
(E) laughing sound
(T) Who is that thought
(T) How old is she thought
(E) Tight head sensation
(E) Breath out sensation
(E) Hunger sensation
(T) I should write this thought
(T) I will forget this thought
(E) Rustling shirt sound
(E) Hand on thigh sensation

Have been taken mentally as evidence of a 'Hursh', but they actually are just experiences?

Is that it? or?

Now another little exercise. Pick one hand up and wiggle the fingers all around, observing carefully. Do it two or three times.

What (in (E) ) is controlling this movement?
What (in E) is it that determines which direction each finger goes?
What is it that decides which hand to pick up? Which fingers to wiggle at each moment?
Does it feel controlled and overseen by an ('I') or does it all just happen sort of automatically?

Don't forget to answer all parts.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Is that (T) or (E)?

You are right. That is just a (T) as well.

What (in (E) ) is controlling this movement?

Again there is some correlation - there is a (T) about how the hand should move, then an (E) of the hand moving correspondingly, but there is no causal relationship between them so I cannot say what is controlling the movement. Urgh, again (E) frustration emotions coming up here as I (?) observe the hand and try to find what is controlling it. Also some confusion as to why the controller seems to go away when I sit down to do these exercises, but it feels so clearly there in daily life. It's like it goes into hiding.

What (in E) is it that determines which direction each finger goes?

Again there is some correlation between (T) and the (E) of the fingers moving, but I cannot say one determines the other. I see no connection in experience.

What is it that decides which hand to pick up? Which fingers to wiggle at each moment?

(T) does, no? The clear thought of which arm to pick up comes then that arm gets picked up. There seems to be some deciding going on in thought sometimes. Other times things just happen.

Does it feel controlled and overseen by an ('I') or does it all just happen sort of automatically?

The (T)s and (E)s seem to happen one after another automatically. Again this seems to be the case when I inspect deeply for answering your questions, but somehow not in daily life (or it just wasn't noticed clearly enough?).

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Thanks for that response.

there is a (T) about how the hand should move, then an (E) of the hand moving correspondingly, but there is no causal relationship between them so I cannot say what is controlling the movement

Well spotted!

Also some confusion as to why the controller seems to go away when I sit down to do these exercises, but it feels so clearly there in daily life.

'Feels so clearly there' or 'has been believed so firmly to be there' (ie programmed thinking system) (T)?

Again this seems to be the case when I inspect deeply for answering your questions, but somehow not in daily life (or it just wasn't noticed clearly enough?).

Again, could it be that assumptions (T) have been built up throughout life, and taken to be real (T)?

Now, let's look further into the question of an independent 'I' who can choose things, separate from the rest of 'Life':-

Imagine for a moment a scene: one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground, the grass, weather conditions etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions and water, like an an ever-changing pattern?

A. Now, considering 'Hursh's everyday life': can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Also some confusion as to why the controller seems to go away when I sit down to do these exercises, but it feels so clearly there in daily life.

'Feels so clearly there' or 'has been believed so firmly to be there' (ie programmed thinking system) (T)?

Again this seems to be the case when I inspect deeply for answering your questions, but somehow not in daily life (or it just wasn't noticed clearly enough?).

Again, could it be that assumptions (T) have been built up throughout life, and taken to be real (T)?

You're right, it could be an assumption. Will inspect as I move through daily life.

A. Now, considering 'Hursh's everyday life': can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

Same (E) frustration when I try to introspect to figure this out. It isn't clear to me. Thoughts are shaped by all the (E)s that have come in throughout this life, and thoughts and actions seem to correlate (and are maybe connected?) but it seems like all one closed system that is a product of the elements.

The idea of "I" autonomously intervening almost seems like semantics. It does seem like thoughts intervene and affect action, but "I" seems separate from thoughts so I would say no, "I" does not intervene.

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

Again discomfort and frustration here as I think about this. It feels experientially true that "I" is separate from thoughts (thoughts come and go and I can watch them rise and fall). But do the two interact? Does the "I" have any influence on (T) or actions? I can't fully tell. I have gone all my life assuming it was the "I" that was making decisions but maybe it was the (T)s only. Part of me still feels like there is some effort or control that the "I" puts into making those decisions or influencing those thoughts to happen but I cannot find such a relationship. I definitely feel really uncomfortable thinking about this and am not sure why.

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Mark: could it be that assumptions (T) have been built up throughout life, and taken to be real (T)?
Hursh: You're right, it could be an assumption. Will inspect as I move through daily life.

Please let me know what you find.

Does the "I" have any influence on (T) or actions?

Seems you have introduced a new player here: "THE 'I'". What is that? Where does that term come from? Sounds like from some other teacher or something...?

Thanks for recording the discomfort and frustration as you consider the mountain stream and apply it to a daily-life decision. Don't forget to try to tell me the exact physical attributes of these sensations. Actually feel them, Hursh, and look into them, their qualities etc.

You haven't really answered my question about "Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?" I am not asking whether it's 'I' or it's 'thoughts' that are responsible for actions, I am asking whether you can find a real independent 'Hursh' there AT ALL, originating anything in the decisions of the day. If you can, please describe that in detail. There has been believed (T) to be 'me' 'doing stuff', 'responsible for stuff', but when you look in experience (E), can such an agent actually BE FOUND?

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your response!

Seems you have introduced a new player here: "THE 'I'". What is that? Where does that term come from? Sounds like from some other teacher or something...?

Hm, yes this may be from other teachers. This assumes there is an I observing the thoughts and experiences but i have no visceral experience of this besides an assumption that *something* must be experiencing this.

You haven't really answered my question about "Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?" I am not asking whether it's 'I' or it's 'thoughts' that are responsible for actions, I am asking whether you can find a real independent 'Hursh' there AT ALL, originating anything in the decisions of the day. If you can, please describe that in detail. There has been believed (T) to be 'me' 'doing stuff', 'responsible for stuff', but when you look in experience (E), can such an agent actually BE FOUND?

You're right, I did not answer this from experience. I made a list of all things that could influence thought and action and spent the day observing. I cannot find any I external from thoughts, sensory experience, and emotions. They influence each other and cause the machine that is Hursh to run and function in the world. "I" feels connected to thoughts - it makes sense to me that it is connected with and lives in those.

As I answered this:

[E] tingling in my toes and ankles sensation
[E] slight back pain sensation
[E] eyes heavy sensation
[E] guilt emotion sensation

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

No, it feels like there is a machine that functions based on the interplay of (T) thoughts and (E) sensations and emotions. And the (T) have different flavors (memories, conditioning, conclusions, observations/labeling) but they have been built up because of sensations since birth and some sort of preprogramming. Nothing of its functioning seems somehow autonomously or externally influenced. Will observe further tomorrow.

While answering this:

[E] right shoulder pain sensation
[E] wind on legs sensation
[E] light/lamp noticing
[E] sadness/doubt emotion
[E] wind sound sensation

[ElPortal]

Great response, Hursh, and thanks for reporting all those (E)'s coming up.

Nothing of its functioning seems somehow autonomously or externally influenced. Will observe further tomorrow.

Cool. I look forward to your news.
Please let me know whether any 'intervening, autonomously controlled' action can truly be found.

A little exercise to do at some point in the day:-
Put three pens/pencils on a table in front of you, preferably all different colours.
Stare at them for a while and then reach forward and take on, giving close attention to all that is going on.
What controlled that? Can something be found there 'making the choice', separate from the whole of Life and all its flow/movement?
Please report from what feels real.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

I've sat with the pens for over an hour today and in the observation I've noticed a few things:

- thoughts occur about what the pens are, what I (? the body?) should do
- sometimes the thoughts correspond to what happens. Sometimes they don't.
- hand moves and picks up and explores pens. I try and I try and I cannot pinpoint a sensation of DOING, a sensation of making the choice. I notice:

(E) noticing pen
(E) noticing another pen
(E) noticing first pen
(T) I should try to focus on picking up the first pen
(E) hand moving sensation
(E) hand grasping sensation
(E) pen in hand sensation
(T) interesting - it is often not the same pen the previous thought was about
(E) pen texture sensation
(E) clicking pen sound
(E) noticing pen in hand

It's just inputs about what my body is doing from my senses but no feeling of *choice*. Thoughts also come and go and sometime correspond to what the body does and sometimes don't and the body just does things. Again getting the feeling that there must be something wrong in observation or what I'm doing now since this is not how my body-mind-self ordinarily works. But maybe my thoughts are so used to thinking in terms of the assumption that this is not the case, that there was never autonomous intention. It is all very strange. I even have vivid memories of the sensation of intention as I do things but it is not here when I look for it.


There does seem to be intention in that thought-action correlation. The thoughts precede the action and so imply some intention, but that doesn't count, does it? Since "I" am not the thoughts (wait... am I? Or is the concept of I only IN thoughts? Does that not make me the thoughts? My thoughts have gone in circles about this a lot today.).

The idea of life just living has resonated a lot in the observations. Thoughts happening. Sensations happening. Both interacting (implicitly, although I cannot observe clear interaction) and affecting each other.

More fleeting sensations of discomfort from thoughts about what I am, but if I try to explore those sensations I find they are slippery and can't find much but physical sensations (pressure on throat, on forehead) and more thoughts.

Thanks,

Hursh




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh,

Thanks for that detailed report.

I even have vivid memories of the sensation of intention as I do things but it is not here when I look for it.
There does seem to be intention in that thought-action correlation.

So in (E) can intention be found, or can it only be found as a thought assumption (T)?

As you go about the next day:-
1. please look for any real intention in actual experience (E), or can it only be found in (T)?
2. please look for any decision-making that can be found in (E), something Hursh can definitely autonomously take credit for (E), or can these only be found as a 'thought claim' (T)?
3. Thoughts comment (T) on decisions, intentions, control, SURE. That IS what they do. Is that ok that they do that? Does that mean that they are responsible for anything? Is it ok just to let thoughts roll on by (like clouds in the sky, or like a pet dog barking at passing birds), without needing to take their contents seriously?
4. Where there is an urge or a preference towards this or that (apparent choice), is this urge something that can be chosen, or is it just a part of all the elements, the flow of life at a location which has always been known as 'Hursh'?


Please notice over the next day, and let me know what comes up.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the response!

So in (E) can intention be found, or can it only be found as a thought assumption (T)?

When I look, only as thought assumption.

As you go about the next day:-
1. please look for any real intention in actual experience (E), or can it only be found in (T)?

Yes, there are thoughts and there are sensations of what my hands/body is doing but there is no intention or autonomous control of what happens. It just happens. As I notice this, though, I often have a tough time telling what we can call autonomous control and what is just life. E.g.

(E) noticing tv, watching tv
(T) I had to be at my friend's place at 4pm
(E) Noticing clock
(E) Noticing time
(T) I should go
(E) Getting up sensation

Here it seems like the first (T) definitely influenced the body and subsequent experience. But isn't this also just 'Hursh' living life? There was no autonomous control here outside the flow of thought arising and subsequent thoughts and actions reacting to it.

2. please look for any decision-making that can be found in (E), something Hursh can definitely autonomously take credit for (E), or can these only be found as a 'thought claim' (T)?

Yes, the decision making is all in (T). Some doings by the body correspond to decisions in T, but most do not - the body just moves and does things. Also it's unclear how the (T) makes the body do things. Both just seem to happen separately.

3. Thoughts comment (T) on decisions, intentions, control, SURE. That IS what they do. Is that ok that they do that? Does that mean that they are responsible for anything? Is it ok just to let thoughts roll on by (like clouds in the sky, or like a pet dog barking at passing birds), without needing to take their contents seriously?

Yes, this is something that is starting to happen - letting thoughts roll by. In experience, there is no visible connection between thoughts and body-movement or experience. As mentioned, there is correlation (they sometimes correspond) but it isn't consistent.

4. Where there is an urge or a preference towards this or that (apparent choice), is this urge something that can be chosen, or is it just a part of all the elements, the flow of life at a location which has always been known as 'Hursh'?

Lots of thoughts over this in the last 2 days, especially "just a part of all the elements, the flow of life at a location which has always been known as 'Hursh'". This is resonating more and more (although not fully just yet) - thoughts coming and going and sensations coming and going, but very little intention or energy going into doing life as much as seeing it unfold. I seem to go in and out of seeing life this way.

Re: urges - the urges themselves seem no different from any other thoughts. They exist then go away.

[ElPortal]

HI Hursh

Good to see some careful looking going on here!

(E) noticing tv, watching tv
(T) I had to be at my friend's place at 4pm
(E) Noticing clock
(E) Noticing time
(T) I should go
(E) Getting up sensation

Here it seems like the first (T) definitely influenced the body and subsequent experience. But isn't this also just 'Hursh' living life? There was no autonomous control here outside the flow of thought arising and subsequent thoughts and actions reacting to it.

Canit be found where the 'frist ( T) definitely influences the body and subsequent experience'? Looking really carefully, is this thought actually definitely originating the subsequent movements, or is it commenting upon an urge which is already there (towards going to neighbours). Is the 'I had to be there'

producing

a sense of 'shold' (ie a belief that something 'should' be happening that isn't), or is it commenting upon a feeling which is already there? Maybe amplifying it in some way? Maybe you could look further into this.

Now, a little exercise about thought commentary:-

It sometimes seems as though (T) (commentary/narrative) comes first and THEN the sensations (E), as though thoughts would claim: "See, it was us that decided, that worked this out etc".. and then as though feelings have to fall into line. But does this stand up to close scrutiny? Is it possible in reality that the exact inverse is happening (not saying that it is or isn't, just looking into the possibility, for you to explore). Here's an experiment you should enjoy (unless you absolutely detest all sports!):-

Find a TV team sport on TV or a Youtube clip that lasts for at least 3 minutes, team sport such as soccer (the ideal sport to use for this), or basketball, or football. 1. Watch with the sound turned OFF one minute of the people messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience. 2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON. Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though (s)he can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter-ish feelings which are there, and encourage an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself. 3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in the experience.

Did the commentary add one whit to the activities on the field, or to the success/outcome of the game? Let me know what comes up.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the response!

Is the 'I had to be there' producing a sense of 'shold' (ie a belief that something 'should' be happening that isn't), or is it commenting upon a feeling which is already there? Maybe amplifying it in some way?

Hm, it was a memory coming up that I had agreed to be somewhere - so more like the first ("belief that something 'should' be happening that isn't"). So that I should be getting up and going. While the act of actually getting up and going seems intention-less (my body just sort of got up and got going), it seems like this is a reaction to the thought that preceded it.

Did the commentary add one whit to the activities on the field, or to the success/outcome of the game? Let me know what comes up.

I really loved this exercise. The moments with the sound off were just:

[E] Notice screen
[E] Notice ball being passed
[E] Notice ball moving
[E] Notice goal

instead of:

[E] Notice ball being passed
[E] Notice announcer giving player history
[T] I wonder how good a player he is
[T] Thoughts about watching other games previously
[E] Notice crowd cheering harder
[E] Notice ball moving

It was a much clearer picture of the events going on rather than a full commentary and the extraneous tape. I found the announcers entertaining but also causing excitement/anxiety/fear- all kinds of emotions - rather than accepting and seeing what's going on.

To answer your question – no, the announcer didn't affect the outcome of the game at all (of course). I can see this happening with our thoughts/experiences a lot of the time (as you said- thoughts comment on decisions, intentions, control), but often the experience/body changes right after a thought about it. Certain experiences like that still seem to me to be causally connected. Would the body have done that without the thought? Did the thought not affect the body at all?

The stream analogy is sitting well with me, though (that Hursh's thoughts and actions are a result of environment and conditioning - there is no 3rd party, autonomous influence). It makes sense and when the thought comes up reminding me of it throughout the day, it brings a calmness.

[ElPortal]

HI Hursh,

Again, nice work. Good looking.

So where is the individual called 'Hursh'? Can such an entity actually be found in experience (E), or only as a thought story (T)?

I invite you now, as soon as you have time, to go out into nature and spend a at least good 20 minutes there. Just watch what is happening, the interplay of trees, leaves, birds, environmental and weather elements. Can any one element be taken out from the rest and be seen to be indepdendent? (See if you can find anything). Or is the whole thing like one big flow or movement. Look carefully .
Now notice the effects of any aspects of this scene on 'this body', maybe a little bit of breeze, or rain, or sunshine, or a give in the grass underfoot. Is this apparent 'Hurshbody' anything separate from the overall movement, or is it too part of the whole flow and movement? Just report honestly on what feels real.
How does this feel? As ever, please report on sensations which come up (E).

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

ps if you can't find really wild nature, then go to a park or the nearest you can find.

Cheers

M

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

So where is the individual called 'Hursh'? Can such an entity actually be found in experience (E), or only as a thought story (T)?

No, only as a thought story. It is a label given to one small piece of life.

Now notice the effects of any aspects of this scene on 'this body', maybe a little bit of breeze, or rain, or sunshine, or a give in the grass underfoot. Is this apparent 'Hurshbody' anything separate from the overall movement, or is it too part of the whole flow and movement? Just report honestly on what feels real.
How does this feel? As ever, please report on sensations which come up (E).

I enjoyed this exercise as well. I went to a park but since today is a holiday in the US, it was fairly crowded. My experience went something like this:

[E] Warmth sensation on skin
[E] birds chirping
[E] horses hooves on road nearby
[E] voices of people
[E] voices of girl in front of me
[T] what was mark trying to get me to see here?
[E] noticing grass against feet
[E] breath in nose sensation
[E] breath out sensation
[E] itch scratching sensation
[T] what are the people around me thinking
[E] noticing person biking
[E] noticing grass
[E] grass green-ness sensation
[E] grass smell
[T] Do I know that man?
[E] birds chirping
[E] warm wind against back

The sensations that were "farther away" from me (even the distance feels like a label) felt the same as those that were on the body directly or happening inside my body - all were experiences as the body kept walking and noticing. Thoughts were interspersed throughout the experience here and there.

Can any one element be taken out from the rest and be seen to be independent? (See if you can find anything). Or is the whole thing like one big flow or movement. Look carefully .

I could notice one element particularly and had (T) happen about it alone, but in pure experience all sensations showing up as part of a tapestry/stream of sensation. In this way, it was all a flow/movement of experience and sensation merging into one another.

It also makes sense to me intellectually that my body is just part of nature and life happening (a part of this ecosystem no more separate than a bird), but I don't think I experienced any experiential or profound realization around this.

As always, thank you for your guidance and fantastic responses.

Hursh