Birdman

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vinceschubert
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Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:59 am

Hi Birdman. Let's start with you mentally scanning your body and tell of any prominent sensations.
When i ask you questions, i am interested in both the answer that arises and what you are experiencing as you consider the question.
Give me a rundown on any expectations that appear when you imagine what might happen over the next few weeks.

vince

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:44 pm

Dear Vince!

First, let me say how grateful I am over this possibility to get to have you as my "Vergilius" on this tour. Maybe The Possibility of my life to wake up once and for all and instead of being the constant seeker become a finder.

Since I wrote my application I have, as I maybe told you read x3 the Gatecrasher book as well as dived in the scalpel-sharp wordings in the iPhone app. It feels as I have had a peek through the illusive gate.

I will make the most of this and try to answer as honest and as clear as I possibly can. If I don't understand the question or terminology, please be patient...

Get back to you asap when I can stand up for the answer.

-----------

Scanning while walking dog, riding the subway, waking up and going to bed... Nothing "prominent" is recorded besides sometimes a sizzling sensation in the chest as well as some constrictions in the solar plexus region. Nothing serious but at times uncomfortable.
Also looking for me in the body. But there is no solid me anywhere in the body. But can't help see or perhaps mentally perceive the "me" as a hologram that is to find in every cell in this body. Theoretical I know but i like the metafor.

No particular reaction to the question itself.

Since reading Gatecrashers and watching Elena & Ilona on YT I must say that the little me has been unusually quiet. I can sense a lightness. Unfamiliar to me.

Re expectations; I have read some threads and the book so in a way I have at least a clue of the process of "Direct pointing" but what will happen in this particular case..?
I wrote this in my presentation re expectations:
I expect honesty and maybe some pain. But as with a birth, pain for a good cause. I expect sharp questions that cut through the crap of the mind and maybe as a cause of that I expect to lose my sense of self. (I read in "Gateless Gatecrashers" so many fear for the annihilation of the ego - I can't wait to see it go!). I may have fears but breaking away from my ego is not one of them. Petty sure of that. Like an abnoxious guest at a party that will not be missed when gone.

As it is now I almost have given up this project as there is no "path" (until now?) to follow, as if freedom/enlightenment is like a grace that is - as it seems - randomly bestowed. What is left for me is the words of Papaji: "Keep quiet, don't think and don't make any effort".

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:08 pm

Good evening Birdman. After you hit the 'reply' button, if you go to the line in my post and highlight it (drag the mouse over it) then click the 'quote' button (up the top of my post) It will put that as a quote in the editor. You then click after the '/quote]' and type your response.
Theoretical I know but i like the metafor.
A good segue..
From the perspective of the organism, can you find anything other than sensations and thought (concepts - theories) ?
No particular reaction to the question itself.
Ok, let's turn the sensitivity knob up a bit.
Of course there were reactions to the question. The complexity of this is (probably) to great to even consider the details. As you consider the question, there associations happening. Memories. ..and sensations.
It is a mental trick that i am asking of you. Don't get completely lost in looking for an answer to the question. Read the sentence, then let it sit, while you check the body for sensations. Now this is important, don't have an opinion about what is noticed. (unless you do. Then don't have an opinion about having had an opinion. ..unless you do, then...)
the little me has been unusually quiet. I can sense a lightness. Unfamiliar to me.
Ah, sounds good. When you refer to "the little me", how does this relate to what is commonly referred to as the Self ?
I expect to lose my sense of self.
Ah, you say "sense of self." How is this different to Self ?
How did you attain a "sense of self" ?
the annihilation of the ego - I can't wait to see it go!
CLANG ! No ego slaying will happen. What you refer to as the ego is not the enemy. Would you define "ego" please, then tell about your own ego.
a grace that is - as it seems - randomly bestowed.
A grace, yes. Maybe it is random, but certainly not bestowed. Let's just say, 'happens'.

love

vince

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:09 pm

Dear Vince!

A little frustration here. I'm not sure I get what you are telling me. Have to get used to this terminology.
From the perspective of the organism, can you find anything other than sensations and thought (concepts - theories) ?
Lots of semantic issues. But essential that we know what we are talking about.
"Organism", I take it to mean the totality of this human form. No, bodily sensations and thoughts actually seem to be what is. (Refreshing feeling arises upon the simplicity of this found!)
Of course there were reactions to the question.
I must have missed the point completely. You asked me to "start with mentally scanning your body and tell of any prominent sensations.
When i ask you questions, i am interested in both the answer that arises and what you are experiencing as you consider the question."

I think the question or task was innocent enough, scanning the body without any particular trigger. Today though a prominent sensation of failure. I try to find an honest answer and not having an opinion of it. Probably too eager to find an answer that makes sense. Moderate but distinct palpitations. The sensation of lightheartedness gone. “Me” is back defending its territory. Today when doing ordinary weekday stuff - brought back to my normal state of heavy me-ness.
When you refer to "the little me", how does this relate to what is commonly referred to as the Self ?
"The little me" is the ever clinging and commenting, judging cluster of thoughts and feelings. What is perceived PLUS commenting and judging... The self-appointed chairman of this being.
Ah, you say "sense of self." How is this different to Self ?
How did you attain a "sense of self" ?
I take it that the Self will always be there as the subject of all experiencing as long as this body is alive but the "sense of self" is an overlay of thoughts, ideas, how all is “supposed to be” (according to the chairman). It is attained via upbringing, social environment, thoughts and experiences since early childhood and throughout the entire life. Out of the realisation that you are "separate" comes fear and with it the need for security, order and comfort, hence the building up of sense of self.
Would you define "ego" please, then tell about your own ego.
I would say that "ego" is much the same as "sense of self". Ideas and conceptions about yourself composed by yourself as opposed to the Self that just "is" - the receiver of perception. Ego is purely fiction I would say. A story made up, often sad and full of missed opportunities, regrets and sometimes inflated out of boundaries.
My ego... Lots of ideas on what I am and not am. Some shortcomings but also sense of pride of what has been achieved.
I don't know how much in detail you want me to go. I would say that my ego thinks that I have done two good things, my four kids and parts of my career. Ego thinks that I might not deserve the good parts and that I should be miserable because of lack of intelligence and talent. Ego thinks I should hold a low profile and not be too happy. Otherwise something bad could happen. Ego think I should feel lonely. (Heaviness in the body.)
A little sadness that it's gone but also gratitude for two days with with an awakened feeling. Subtle and distinct at the same time.

yours truly
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:38 pm

Good evening Birdman,
A little frustration here. I'm not sure I get what you are telling me. Have to get used to this terminology.
Yes, understandable. It will take a few posts before we synchronise our use of language. This stuff is often outside the realms of language.
Today though a prominent sensation of failure.
Unpleasant, but handy. Can you identify a story that preceded these sensations ?
I try to find an honest answer and not having an opinion of it. Probably too eager to find an answer that makes sense.
i do want honesty, but not particularly concerned with it making sense.
“Me” is back defending its territory.
Excellent insight. The Self is very territorial. Defence is one of it's fortes. What is the story before the defensiveness arose ?
brought back to my normal state of heavy me-ness.
Bummer. This too will have a story attached. Can you see it ?
"The little me" is the ever clinging and commenting, judging cluster of thoughts and feelings. What is perceived PLUS commenting and judging... The self-appointed chairman of this being.
That certainly sounds like a Self ?
I take it that the Self will always be there as the subject of all experiencing
Ah, a big one. Now, is this a logical deduction ? ..or something else ?
I would say that my ego thinks
Ok, so ego is totally thoughts. A story of Self. Can you find any exceptions to this ?

love

vince

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:11 pm

Dear Vince!

Away from computer with iPad but can't seem to get neither Tapatalk nor ordinary forum to make a quote for me.

Back asap!

Birdman



Sent from iPad med Tapatalk

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:56 pm

Dear Vince!

Borrowed my 89 year old dad's computer so here it goes.
This stuff is often outside the realms of language.
We can agree on that!
Can you identify a story that preceded these sensations ?
Sensation of inadequacy of getting what you want from me and misunderstanding the task or question. That the "clear seeing" of the last days were gone as morning dew in the first rays of sun. Story: maybe that I am not worthy of this experience and that is way beyond my horizon. But at the same time a firm knowing that it doesn´t work that way. No one ever gets what he deserves, just an idea/label but still felt in the body as this heaviness.

I don´t know if it is off topic but I must tell you about my working days and sense of flow. Apart from these last days of “clear seeing” the moments it was easiest to live was when I was on the podium with my instrument. The I/Me/Self was gone then. What was, was only the music, this musician and the instrument. Not even the audience were there but for short moments, nor time or sometimes even place. The feeling of here/now didn´t last after the concert though, they were just a blessed moments. Just wanted to mention that. Hard to get that “fix” nowadays when retired…
i do want honesty, but not particularly concerned with it making sense.
Excellent, I´ll keep that in mind. Conditioned as we are to make sense and be clear.
The Self is very territorial. Defence is one of it's fortes. What is the story before the defensiveness arose ?
I try to look for an any attack provoking the Me to arise… No sensation of fear on the horizon. If it is subconscious – I wouldn´t know. Maybe a cloud of boredom. I was in the city with lots of sensory input, but even when I woke up in the morning I knew that the lightness was gone. I´m sorry, no real story that I can recall except for the big deal with the fire of the satori-like experience.
This too will have a story attached. Can you see it ?
Again sorry, I can see no story, nothing particular happened in or outside that I can recall. Probably must have but I was not attentive enough I guess. I will try to be more observant.
That certainly sounds like a Self ?
Ok, so what I refer to as the “me” we call the “self” from now on? My meaning of “self” is the subject of all experiencing without the commenting, like the film screen or "awareness".
Now, is this a logical deduction ? ..or something else ?
Not a deduction but something that seems to be known at a deeper level than thoughts. "Self"="Screen" or "Awareness" as long it has a conscious body to dwell in.
so ego is totally thoughts. A story of Self. Can you find any exceptions to this ?
Yes, “ego” is purely thoughts and concepts of Self (above meaning) but somehow I bestow it power.
"Exceptions to ego being purely thoughts"..? No, either it is thoughts or not. I can't see other than thoughts. No exceptions.
What about if I am asked to write a CV, ego might have something to come up with, like my name for instance?


"I"

"Me"

"Self" (the entangled ball of thoughts?)

"Sense of self"

"Ego" (difference from Self?)

"Mind"

"Screen" (=consciousness?)

"Consciousness, awareness, presence"


Who are the good guys and who to look out for? Any synonyms?

Could you please define short these words so we know what we mean.
If you have time, also dwell a couple of words on the "Mind trick" you mentioned.


All the best form Up-over!
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:01 pm

Good morning Birdman,
can't seem to get neither Tapatalk nor ordinary forum to make a quote for me
Yes, it's a missing function in Taptalk. Feel free to put the quote in quotation marks. Just so it is obvious what you are responding to.
Story: maybe that I am not worthy of this experience and that is way beyond my horizon. But at the same time a firm knowing that it doesn´t work that way. No one ever gets what he deserves,
Excellent. When i ask for story, it is a reporting of the thoughts that arise. They don't have to be coherent, or even prominent. In fact often the story behind emotion can be subtle. Then there are those stories that were conditioned in such a long time ago that they don't reach conscious realms. They have been accepted as an inevitable fact of life and are responded to without question or awareness. These ones are beliefs.
Now to the content of this story... Are "worthy", "deserve", in themselves, stories ? Do they exist other than as socially conditioned concepts ?
but still felt in the body as this heaviness.
Yes, a paradox (kind of) The head says one thing but the body expresses the opposite. Now, when this happens, a good technique is to examine the heaviness (or whatever sensations are present) in detail. When doing this, it is a practice of separating the thoughts from the sensations. That is you recognize say, a feeling in the stomach, then observe the mind trying to explain it, or moralise about it. Don't have an opinion about this. ...and if you do, don't have an opinion about that (unless you do, then don't have one about that, unless you do....)
I don´t know if it is off topic
i don't mind "off topic". If it comes up, then it's relevant.
Hard to get that “fix”
Right. If you recall those moments when you were 'in the zone', would you say that they happened co-incidentally ? (literal meaning) That they weren't the end goal ? That they were incidental to the playing ?
i would call this a 'state'. ..and all states are temporary.
This is a big one. You are human, and as such, have the capacity to experience the full range of experiences the organism is capable of. Do you think that this process is going to make you more than human ?
Are you looking for magic ?
If it is subconscious – I wouldn´t know.
This is a big one. Accepting what we don't know, as a mystery. So many of our emotions are the result of stories that can't be known, but have been accepted as 'Truth'.
One of the biggest changes here (for me) has been the (almost) constant wonder at how things happen.
So much so that a new word happened. i now describe life-ing as wonderfull.
I knew that the lightness was gone.
i would have (probably) experienced a moment of sadness. You (seemingly) experienced grief and sadness, and longing, and desire. Is this accurate ?
I will try to be more observant.
NO !
We are jumping in deep, very quickly here. Trying to DO anything, is an illusion. i do know what you mean, but this exemplifies most of the suffering experienced.
Practically speaking, have the intention to be more observant, then forget it. Observing will happen, or not.
The idea that this is controllable is rubbish. It is a setup for inadequacy.
Where did the idea originate ? (to be more observant)
is the subject of all experiencing
So many big ones, so close to the 'beginning'. Another illusion. This one is the result of language.
Notice the sensation that comes into existence when you put attention to where the bum meets the chair.
Focus intently, notice the thoughts describing and labelling. Allow them to fade and really put full attention on the sensation.
Was there a moment when you would describe experiencing as being the sensation ?
Is the notion of an experiencer experiencing the experienced, just that ? ..an idea ? A logical conclusion ?
Not a deduction but something that seems to be known at a deeper level than thoughts.
Hmm, alright, we'll come back to this. For the moment we'll call it "something else".
What about if I am asked to write a CV, ego might have something to come up with, like my name for instance?
Yes, ego (story of self) is useful. Essential to exist in society. Necessary to communicate.
Ego is not an enemy to be eliminated. Like a misbehaving dog, we just have to train it to recognize boundaries.
Could you please define short these words so we know what we mean.
This is tricky, as context plays a big part in meaning. It will happen as we go..
If you have time, also dwell a couple of words on the "Mind trick" you mentioned.
Oops. i don't remember and can't find reference to this.

love

vince

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:38 pm

Dear Vince!

Prominent reactions on your last msg. Got it late here, just before going to bed. I am so looking forward to every post from you so of course I read it through even though it was late. Something in my body reacted with alarm bells, palpitations, "soda in the chest" and even a slight headache! Tried the exercise (butt against chair) but I my case at this time of day, back of body against mattress. There were no way the body would let me go on with it, nor the mind, questioning the benefit and diminishing it as just another "relaxing" routine! Just as if something wouldn't let me! Tried to separate the thoughts from the sensations as you asked me. I got so agitated that I had to start writing now at 01.30! As if parts of me were under attack... But no sensation of fear. Very peculiar, body in almost "red alert" mode, mind fascinated and bewildered. My conclusion (belief) is that on some level my being is threatened by our query and feels a need to strike alarm. I think that I have not experienced that rift in such a bright light.
I will now go back to bed and hope to get some sleep. I have noticed since this query began that I feel a very strong intensity and at times keep me wide awake in the small hours. Something is definitely being stirred inside of me on some basic level.
are responded to without question or awareness
Even awareness?
Are "worthy", "deserve", in themselves, stories ? Do they exist other than as socially
conditioned concepts ?
Concepts, ideas, labels about myself, like words in the novel about me. They don't seem "real" when looked into but somehow real in "the body". Yes story is subtle but often experienced in the body. As I said above, fantasies - (knowing) it doesn't work that way.
would you say that they happened co-incidentally ? (literal meaning
Beyond the limit of my knowledge about this language, sorry.
This is a big one. You are human, and as such, have the capacity to experience the full range of experiences the organism is capable of. Do you think that this process is going to make you more than human ?
Are you looking for magic ?
They happened I guess because the focus was so extremely narrow. All was only here, now, all was the artistic expression, the surfing on years of perfecting of technique. The seducing of the audience, making them hear/see what they wanted to see and hear. Almost like a magician.
No, they were not an end goal! Byproducts. Blessed moments as I said.
Ha! No, I'd settle gladly for being just awake, not a sleepwalker.
i now describe life-ing as wonderfull.
As a nature oriented person I am almost every day experiencing the world as wonderfull! Very easy now in spring time here after a long, cold and grey winter. Budding trees, returning birds from far away to the exact roof tile as last year...!
You (seemingly) experienced grief and sadness, and longing, and desire. Is this accurate ?
Yes, absolutely, I would say sadness, longing for That to come back, but not any desire(=grasping) for it. Resignation that I'm never going to "get it" on one plane, on another, a knowing that the subtle but distinct shift, the falling away is there all the time, maybe too close to see.
The idea that this is controllable is rubbish. It is a setup for inadequacy.
Where did the idea originate ? (to be more observant)
The idea originated as a thought in the mind as I couldn't recall any thoughts you wanted me to record. That I should be at more attentive student. I understand what you say about the Doing and suffering on a conceptual level. As I write and look it seems that there is something alien almost that is "running me" and that escapes through my fingers as I try to look closer, e.g. what happened last night after receiving your mail.
So many big ones, so close to the 'beginning'. Another illusion. This one is the result of language.
Lost me there, sorry...
Was there a moment when you would describe experiencing as being the sensation ?
Is the notion of an experiencer experiencing the experienced, just that ? ..an idea ? A logical conclusion ?
Tough one! (also from a language point, scrutinising makes me almost have to translate back and forth...) Not spontaneously so many thoughts and labels, more sensing perception in the rear. Warmth, the border between bum and support getting vague. I, more and more quiet, there's just sitting.

"Experiencing as being the sensation?", a koan?!
The bird being the kookaburra..?
There is only the living feathered being. Life showing up as that life form we call Bird/Kookaburra. "Bird" and "kookaburra" only practical labels. For a Birdman anyway ;). I don't know it that has any bearing whatsoever on the original question....
Seeing, sensing, receiving perceptions seem to happen all the time. Just don't know what/who is the receiver of all this input.

An "experinencer"?. Well something seems to be the receiver of all input. There's always experiencing. That is how far I get now. I don't know what to call that which is experiencing (awareness?). So at this time I'd say that it's a logical conclusion that if there's an experience there should be something that experiences it. But again that's only another thought. If I watch the budding tree outside the window and look for an experiencer I can't say see any, just as little as I can see any trace of an I besides thought. There is seeing the tree, some thoughts want to know what species it is, some thoughts remembering the owl in it from last winter...but really nothing like a solid experiencer.
On driving home 80km from my parents some intensive looking was done. I tried to look for any “experiencer”. Like when looking for I/my name there was nothing solid found. In spite of an intuitive feeling it must be some sort of subject. Sensations on the body from the car, hands holding the wheel. There was only driving except a few seeming innocent thoughts about other cars or the kestrel on the lamp post. Very smooth feeling.
Hmm, alright, we'll come back to this. For the moment we'll call it "something else".
Something must be the receiver of all experiencing!
Ego is not an enemy to be eliminated. Like a misbehaving dog, we just have to train it to recognize boundaries.
Love the dog analogy! Ego-the-dog needs a short leash... Ego concept much clearer. Can see why you didn't want it slain. Just well behaved maybe.
Oops. i don't remember and can't find reference to this.
Sorry, 21/4 you mentioned "mental trick"..

I am so grateful for your help carrying out this query. I see this as my most important task. Of course there are always practical stuff that has to be dealt with. But this query is on top of everything. I will be travelling to my summer home and packing on the 27-28th. So if you don't hear from me those days, that is the reason.

All the best wishes!
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:47 am

Dear Vince

Middle of the night again. The "experiencer" keeps me awake. I like the term very much, name says it all, no fluff as with I, me, self, mind etc. There is a key here I sense. I will focus on this for the next days, not "do" focus but let it happen. As I said earlier, I can not find any experiencer strangely enough. Should be though. How can there be an experience without a subject. Makes absolutely no sense!! Although lack of evidence, points that way. Total confusion.
Must try to get some sleep.

Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:39 am

Good morning Birdman, i just got out of bed and read your post. Love the tone of it.
Got it late here, just before going to bed
Yes, i usually like to respond to these posts last thing of a night, when all is quiet and i can lose myself in them, but sometimes this body is too tired to do that. Then hopefully in the morning, but sometimes the day starts off with a bang, so it doesn't happen 'till that night. As you are going into Spring, and Autumn just happened here (a month late) in Australia, our nights and days, don't synchronize.
Something in my body reacted with alarm bells, palpitations, "soda in the chest" and even a slight headache!
This is excellent news. Metaphorically speaking, it is the fear of the unknown happening as the armour falls away. If you welcome it (rather than attempt to avoid it) it will morph into excitement. A great new adventure. (not that you can actually DO anything about it)
There were no way the body would let me go on with it, nor the mind, questioning the benefit and diminishing..
Good reporting. The big thing here is not what was happening, but that you could SEE it happening. No need (for you) to explain it.
But no sensation of fear.
Ah, story arises, that you were in the 'flight' phase of the fright/flight reaction.
Tried to separate the thoughts from the sensations as you asked me.
This won't happen with that level of body arousal. Being pedantic, i wasn't asking you to DO "trying to separate...", but rather observe the queitening of thought which will (probably) happen.
They have been accepted as an inevitable fact of life and are responded to without question or awareness.
Even awareness?
Yes, most definitely. If you are aware then the response is conscious, and likely to be considered. Beliefs are a 'living out' of the concept.
As with all of this stuff, don't ever take what i say as gospel. Always test it for yourself. We are looking for an experiential 'shift', not anything intellectual.
Pick a belief, any belief, and consider the last time that you tested it, or questioned it in any way.
Yes story is subtle but often experienced in the body.
Yes, you might say that belief (stories) are internalized. The 'body experience' is a reaction to the story.
Beyond the limit of my knowledge about this language, sorry.
No worries. i was seeing the word 'coincidentally' as co-incidental. As happening at the same time.
When doing this stuff, i can literally see how our language is evolved by our interpretation of experience. ..and how our experience is shaped by our language.
An interesting 'fact'; Did you know that the color blue, didn't exist in Shakespeare's time, because there was no word for it ? http://www.businessinsider.com.au/what- ... ?r=UK&IR=T
maybe too close to see.
Ah, nail head being hit !
It's easy to overlook what IS.
For Vince, the portal to 'waking up', was when I was told "the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while you keep scratching it." ..then THIS IS IT ! hit Me in the face.
My meaning of “self” is the subject of all experiencing
So many big ones, so close to the 'beginning'. Another illusion. This one is the result of language.
Lost me there, sorry...
This is a good example of the circular nature of language <-> experience, mentioned above.
Do this exercise; look at an object in front of you.
Now as you look at it, notice the perception of depth (distance).
Now ask yourself, where does the see-er finish and the seen start ? Don't wait for an answer. Now notice some detail of the object. Notice how it almost seems a different object when detail is seen.
Did the seeing happen at the object, or at your eyes ?
Neuroscience tells us that the whole thing happened in your brain. That two people sitting side by side, would see entirely different objects. (although they would probably give it the same label)
Is there a see-er and a seen ? ..or only see-ing ?
"Experiencing as being the sensation?", a koan?!
Ha, it wasn't meant to be a koan.
Let's say that you feel a stinging sensation on the leg. You look down and find an ant there.
The mind says "that ant just bit me."
If you capture the moment between the sting sensation and thoughts arriving (to explain), you could call that Direct Experience.
By the time the mind enters, it is memory (that is the first instance of the sting)
If you take the direct experiencing of seeing, there is nothing else. No subject, no object. Just seeing. Now don't take my word for this. Look at something and keep focussing until thoughts quieten. Don't try and quieten them. Just wait. It will happen.


Gotta go - back soon.

love

vince

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:56 am

Dear Vince,

Thank you for the post. I will react to it as soon as digested.
Don't get free of the "experiencer". Memories of DE from the looking at the tree outside my parents and the car ride. How there can be experience happening and no experiencer, receiver or subject (deep sigh). That goes against everything and my body/mind can't seem to let go of this... The wife's little warm dogs body on my lap seem so evident and obvious... But on the other hand - again no evident experiencer, only sensations, thoughts. But WHO/WHAT is having these sensation/thoughts???

I'll be back
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:49 pm

I try to answer myself. The brain surely on a basic level? Receiver of sensory input via the senses...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:07 pm

Good morning Birdman. Just a quick one as i'm off to golf in an hour.
But WHO/WHAT is having these sensation/thoughts???
Lateral thinking (if it happens) can be useful for some answers .
It's language again. It seduces us into a particular form of thinking. Perhaps, demand, rather than seduces.
The answer to this question can't be known from the perspective of the organism. It can only be deduced. A logical conclusion can be arrived at, but isn't helpful.
What is helpful is to recognize the obsessive nature of thoughts. That they have been conditioned to want to rest in explanation. They categorize and explain, in order to label, and have great dissatisfaction without a neat conclusion.

..back this afternoon (probably)

love

vince

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Birdman
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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:29 pm

Dear Vince!

Thanks for posting. Tomorrow I have some duties and errands before I leave the city for a couple of weeks and it gets calmer and more time for writing. So if you don't hear from me in a couple of days, I will soon be back. DE continues meanwhile.

Birdman


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