Looking for a way out...

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Dre
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:32 am

The exploding sun, the inevitble exploding of the "Me" centered in the heart...just a strange parallel...that's all.
Yes, that's what I thought. Just checking!=) Without the gravitational pull of the belief in a "me" everything is allowed to just orbit freely...
So, lets go back to the me ball in your chest -- who perceives it?
I do. The I does. An I that is aware. An I that is not a "me", not claiming individuality, ownership, doership. Just blankly staring at all that happens. Even the story of "me" is allowed in this I.

Although this subject-object (I seeing the ball in the chest) relationship is assumed, right? There is perception of tightness at the heart. But is there a perceiver and a perceived, or just this perceiving...?

Love to you.
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:44 am

Well, it's a rabbit hole here...there is a point that the witness self/awareness dissolves and it would be more apt to say "aware-ing" happens. But that is a leap frog at this juncture...you are clearly able to sit from a view beyond the "I" that is in the chest, so that is key.

If this chest-heart-me is somehow a constricted place that keeps the "me" alive, lets dig in here. You ascribed this to be a "root of individuality" and so lets pull it out.

Does this me-heart self exist? If so, prove it.

Lori ANn

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:50 pm

Does this me-heart self exist? If so, prove it.
Well, no. It's just a sensation, a feeling, some emotional knot "stuck" at a body level. There's no one there. There are no decisions happening there, no thoughts even, although this energy may influence these. But it's no control center, just a sensation, with a story attached to it. Like a cloud in the sky, being nothing, with a convincing enough story may become a bunny, or a heart or two faces kissing!

Perception is not "coming" from there, this "place" is not aware, so it hardly candidates for an entity. Dualistically speaking, it's just an object. The subject aware of its presence is not, in any way, affected by it.

Love!
Andre
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:03 am

Does this me-heart self exist? If so, prove it.
Well, no. It's just a sensation, a feeling, some emotional knot "stuck" at a body level. There's no one there. There are no decisions happening there, no thoughts even, although this energy may influence these. But it's no control center, just a sensation, with a story attached to it. Like a cloud in the sky, being nothing, with a convincing enough story may become a bunny, or a heart or two faces kissing!

Perception is not "coming" from there, this "place" is not aware, so it hardly candidates for an entity. Dualistically speaking, it's just an object. The subject aware of its presence is not, in any way, affected by it.

Love!
Andre
I like that cloud analogy, good one! The same cloud analagoy can be applied to the "I" cloud, can it not? That a puffy conglomeration of thoughts floating through can with a convicing enough story (called conditioning) become this thing called "I" or "self."

Who is this "subject aware of it's presence" exactly? Are you sure there is a subject who is aware? Or could be simpler...aware-ing. No entity doing it. Just aware-ing happening.

Lori ANn

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:10 am

"The I does. An I that is aware. An I that is not a "me", not claiming individuality, ownership, doership. Just blankly staring at all that happens. Even the story of "me" is allowed in this I."

I meant also to address these words of yours--I am wondering if you are waiting for this ghost sense of self/subject to dissapear for some kind of "purity" of liberation?

I am getting we are knocking on an open door, honey. You have already seen clearly the illusion of individuality/self. You are through. You just don't seem to like the fact that you are unable to shake this "I that is aware" and that is okay. It's simply an artifact of body-mind-subject habit. In more traditional enlightenment texts, the witness Presence-Awareness does eventually dissolve as well.

Let me know what your sense of this is? That you are throught the "gate" but having an experience of doubt or dissatisfaction?

Lori ANn

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:54 am

Hi there, Lori.
Who is this "subject aware of it's presence" exactly? Are you sure there is a subject who is aware? Or could be simpler...aware-ing. No entity doing it. Just aware-ing happening.
Yes, I know that allowing a subject in the picture is necessarily bringing in the object too, and one can't get more dual than that! But when the recognition happened in the past there was a clear sense of identity - a very different one, for sure, but still there was this recognition of "my" true nature as being spacious, blissful, beyond time and space. Trust me, there was no "me" left in there, that simple thought would trigger a roaring laughter for being so ridiculous and out-of-synch with reality. Just absolute reality is present. But still, there was a clear taste of my nature, a positve understanding of what I is, not just a recognition of what I am not. I "apperceived" directly my own presence, not an absence of anything.

I must admit, I'm having a bit of a troulble with this duality subject/object... Thinking that there is no perceiver (even an ultimate perceiver), but just perceiving happening, just experiencing, etc., makes sense and is a damn of a good pointer for me, but then I feel like something is missing... What am I then? I know I exist. I'm existence itself? It makes sense, but I can't quite put my finger on it, as I can with the "I am awareness" one. Do you feel what I mean?
I am wondering if you are waiting for this ghost sense of self/subject to dissapear for some kind of "purity" of liberation?
Didn't quite get this one... (maybe it's my english!)
I am getting we are knocking on an open door, honey. You have already seen clearly the illusion of individuality/self. You are through.

(...)

Let me know what your sense of this is? That you are throught the "gate" but having an experience of doubt or dissatisfaction?
Yes, the seeing of the ilusion has happened - more than once - but the belief in separation returned and is here. I can't honestly say that I'm through. I have crossed the "gate". And it sure didn't feel like this! The certainty of the recongnition of my true nature was unequivocal and certain like a punch in the face! Maybe I found the "ox" (in buddhist terminology) and I'm ridding on its turbulent back, but the "taming" is definitely not complete... I feel the pull, from the bottom of my heart, to nail this thing down, the silent cry of the soul for true freedom and peace. I can't ignore the fact that life still appears to revolve around some entity called "Andre". Although no individual is ever found anywhere, the claustrophobia of this apparent individuality is, at times, felt as if at a celular level...
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:36 am

HI Dre:

You are preaching to the choir in your words below:
Hi there, Lori.

Yes, I know that allowing a subject in the picture is necessarily bringing in the object too, and one can't get more dual than that! But when the recognition happened in the past there was a clear sense of identity - a very different one, for sure, but still there was this recognition of "my" true nature as being spacious, blissful, beyond time and space. Trust me, there was no "me" left in there, that simple thought would trigger a roaring laughter for being so ridiculous and out-of-synch with reality. Just absolute reality is present. But still, there was a clear taste of my nature, a positve understanding of what I is, not just a recognition of what I am not. I "apperceived" directly my own presence, not an absence of anything.

I must admit, I'm having a bit of a troulble with this duality subject/object... Thinking that there is no perceiver (even an ultimate perceiver), but just perceiving happening, just experiencing, etc., makes sense and is a damn of a good pointer for me, but then I feel like something is missing... What am I then? I know I exist. I'm existence itself? It makes sense, but I can't quite put my finger on it, as I can with the "I am awareness" one. Do you feel what I mean?
Yes, I feel what you mean. I too have spacious blissful/peaceful apperception of what "I" am vs. what I am not. There are different entry points to self-realization/awakening and yours has a similar description of mine. The seeing of the illusion of a separate self is one way to disconnect from a belief/conditioning that OBSCURES true nature--it is as Illona would say, and awakening TRIGGER. It's not a solution here, Dre, in that your sense of I will not go away, just your belief in it. ANd when you pull the belief plug, the "I" drains of power and over time/or all at once can go pretty darn quiet.

I'm not sure if I have asked this already, but anway, rather than scroll back, can you tell me why you feel you are needing to change anything right now? What is "wrong" with the is-ness? If you are chasing the honeymoon high of Presence-Awareness revealled, then it's the egoic mind running a search for what is already here. What a game that is! You on seeking, when if you just stop, you realize it's as close as your shadow.

I too had a blissful/vast spacious awakening to the AM ness of true nature. And though it was months ago, it is still here, just not as dazzling or vivid as at first. Yet it's clear that nothing has gone, nothing is wrong, nothing is missing. Because suffering is no longer here.

What makes you suffer?

and then

Who is the sufferer?

L

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:06 pm

can you tell me why you feel you are needing to change anything right now? What is "wrong" with the is-ness?
It's kinda subtle, I told you already that my life, in the conventional aspects, is running quite smoothly. It's just dukkha, a subtle but nearly constant sense of "something lacking". And after the seeing in '09, it became clear that a lie was being lived, that the truth, although always present, was being apparently obscured by false beliefs.
If you are chasing the honeymoon high of Presence-Awareness revealled, then it's the egoic mind running a search for what is already here.
I want the certainty of knowing clearly and experientially what I am. I've felt that certainty, I know that's what remains after the fireworks come to an end. I don't care for fireworks, just the certainty that brings the end of suffering and doubt.
nothing is wrong, nothing is missing. Because suffering is no longer here.
See? I can't say that. No matter how many books I read, how many conversation on this I may have, how many insights and recognitions, if the root belief in individuality is there, there is suffering and doubt.
What makes you suffer?

and then

Who is the sufferer?
All of the above - the sense of lacking, the sense that the belief in a separate self is still operating, perpetuating an existencial lie, a mistaken identity.

Now, who is the suferer..? The truth is that there is suffering (or sensations are labeled as such), but I can't find the sufferer! Perhaps the sufferer is the mind itself, because it is the one that lables stuff as being right or wrong, supposed to be happening or not. But why does it do that? Perhaps the body-mind itself "knows" when life is not being lived in accordance to the truth, to the facts of reality. Like a mechanism to uncover the belief in separation or individuality. As long as this belief is there, there is suffering. The sufferer is the idea of a separate person... But being just an idea, how does it suffer? See, here I am doing the acrobatic show!=P

The idea of a person sometimes seems to be holding on a fine thread, but it still keeps "me" hanging!

Who is the sufferer? The person called Andre. Who is Andre? I don't know, can't seem to find the center of it, that existencial unit. But thought still spins around this idea, and it's that spinning that's keeping the feeling of dizziness (suffering) around.
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:20 pm

Now, who is the suferer..? The truth is that there is suffering (or sensations are labeled as such), but I can't find the sufferer! Perhaps the sufferer is the mind itself, because it is the one that lables stuff as being right or wrong, supposed to be happening or not. But why does it do that? Perhaps the body-mind itself "knows" when life is not being lived in accordance to the truth, to the facts of reality. Like a mechanism to uncover the belief in separation or individuality. As long as this belief is there, there is suffering. The sufferer is the idea of a separate person... But being just an idea, how does it suffer? See, here I am doing the acrobatic show!=P

The idea of a person sometimes seems to be holding on a fine thread, but it still keeps "me" hanging!

Who is the sufferer? The person called Andre. Who is Andre? I don't know, can't seem to find the center of it, that existencial unit. But thought still spins around this idea, and it's that spinning that's keeping the feeling of dizziness (suffering) around.
It occcurs to me that the "seeker" self is creating the dukkha. Would this be accurate? That what the seeker self is seeking, is a state of beingness that has come, and apparently, left?

If this is so, can you LOOK squarely at this "I" that suffers and tell me, is it real? Or is there the thought "I should be feeling a certain way, a certain state should be here" that is causing this distress. Is there a SUFFERER? Really?
Or is there the thought only, of "what should be" and then the attendant emotional arising of agitation or unhappiness or worry>

I keep just wanting you to SEE that the "sun" of your beingness is still here. You just have a huge MF-king cloud of conditioning in the way...the "SUFFERER/SEEKER" that stirs up Dukkha. It's not real, it's just convincing.

Sit with this, Andre. Like in a meditation way. Just sit still. See what is beyond the dukkha, when the dukkha is allowed to be there but not believed. Just like we don't see a cloud and doubt the sun is still there. We just know, it's obsucred...and this too shall pass.

Lori ANn

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:59 pm

hey Andre, did I lose you? What's up?

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:09 am

Hey!

I'm sorry, I didn't see your last post. I sent you a PM unaware of that last post.
hey Andre, did I lose you?
No, not yet, unfortunately! "Andre" is still here.

I tried to take some time to look into this stuff. Didn't happen as much as I wished, but still here I am investigating daily.

I've been coming to a conclusion - don't know if it's mental excuses I'm making up, but tell me what you think.

I think I know what's keeping the sense of separation alive, what's keeping the "me" apparently there. Rupert Spira says that the mental aspect of the belief in a separate self is just the tip of the iceberg. In fact, the FELT sense of separate existence comes from an emotional, body level. That even after it is seen that there is no separate "me", there are still imprints left on the body that will keep the "me" in place. That is, althought it is known that there is no separate self, it is felt that there is one.

I'm guessing that's why after having a few clear recognitions of the true nature, the belief in separation returns as strong as ever. It's that ball of "me-ness" at the heart that's keeping the sense of separation in place and it's spinning further thoughts about individuality.

Now, I don't know how to disolve this knot (this cloud of conditioning, as you put it). I've been looking at it. It's just a sensation in the chest, but still the hipnosis endures. I'll keep going, looking directly, reading some stuff to keep the fire burning, and I'll see what happens. Of course, any feedback on your part is warmly welcomed.

Love to you!
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:06 pm

Well Dre, here is some juicy home work then...since you are already using Robert Spiria as a springboard, have you read Standing As Awareness, by Greg Goode? I's not a book of theory, but a workbook of exericises to investigate first hand, the illusion of I/me. I'd suggest the book, but also pass on one of the exercises.

This is rudimentary, but lets try it anyway. Can you just let listening happen. Sit where ever you are right now and close your eyes, and hear. Sounds will come and go. Does there need to be an I for hearing to happen? Or does the I barge in after the hearing, with "i heard that."

I've re-read your thread just now, from the start with Eloratea, and it seems you are expecting the felt sense of me/I to dissolve entirely? It's not like that, unless perhaps you are in a bliss state, which is not perpertual and sustainable if you are to function in the world. What it's more like is background vs foreground. Seeing that there is not self is a recgonition that then moves this felt sense of self (an artifact of the five senses) to the background. The foreground is a clarity and ease of "aware-ing" through life.

Here's an Alan Watt's quote for your digestion. :-)

"Because awareness is a view of reality free from ideas and judgement, it is clearly impossible to define and write down what it reveals. Anything which can be described is an idea, and I cannot make a positive statement about something - the real world-which is not an idea. I shall therefore have to be content with talking about the false impressions which awareness removes, rather than the truth which it reveals. The latter can only be symbolized with words which mean little or nothing to those without a direct understanding of the truth in question.
What is true and positive is too real and too living to be described, and to try to describe it is like putting red paint on a red rose. Therefore most of what follows will have to have a rather negative quality. The truth is revealed by removing things that stand in its light, an art not unlike sculpture, in which the artist creates, not by building, but by hacking away. ~~Alan Watts~~

Can you point to what has fallen away as you have had two clear recognitions of true nature as no self? And as you have been re-investigating the truth her at LU? In otherwords, instead of looking for a profound shift of somethingness, can you see what has fallen away?

Lori Ann

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:42 pm

have you read Standing As Awareness, by Greg Goode?
Just ordered from amazon. Had been seating in my wishlist for many months... I read a few pages online, they were strucking a chord...
This is rudimentary, but lets try it anyway. Can you just let listening happen. Sit where ever you are right now and close your eyes, and hear. Sounds will come and go. Does there need to be an I for hearing to happen? Or does the I barge in after the hearing, with "i heard that."
Yes, hearing happens. It's independent from any belief, thought or concept. It's inevitable, like seeing, smelling, etc. All perceptions happen spontaneously. "I" can't stop them, nor make them happen! The only things that appear to need a center of decision (a self, an entity) are some body-mind actions, like moving or making choices, altought under scrutiny it doesn't hold much water either.

Even "personal" thoughts seems to happen by themselves, body functions and emotions the same. Ideas of volition and will grow thiner if we investigate them. But the deep rooted sense that an "I" is in charge of them remains. There must be some blindspot here...
I've re-read your thread just now, from the start with Eloratea, and it seems you are expecting the felt sense of me/I to dissolve entirely? It's not like that, unless perhaps you are in a bliss state, which is not perpertual and sustainable if you are to function in the world. What it's more like is background vs foreground. Seeing that there is not self is a recgonition that then moves this felt sense of self (an artifact of the five senses) to the background. The foreground is a clarity and ease of "aware-ing" through life.
What's expected here is the certainty of no-self, it's to stop believing in a separate self. In my recognitions the certainty was absolute, and some moments of clarity were quite simple, not ecstatic at all. One of them was just the fall of the "me". Lasted a couple of minutes, at most, but the humbleness of no-person was profound. In that moment, the footseps of a separate self were untraceable, so I'd be inclined to disagree with you when you say that the sense of me remains, but I won't journey into that - I do think I get your point.

I'm not looking for any states or beautiful experiences. But suffering has to stop - it's the ultimate test for truth. And I fail daily. It's subtle, but the mechanism is still functioning. Lately, I've been having clarity moments more often, and the "flavour" of those moments is clearly diferent from the ordinary point of view of the imagined person.
Can you point to what has fallen away as you have had two clear recognitions of true nature as no self? And as you have been re-investigating the truth her at LU? In otherwords, instead of looking for a profound shift of somethingness, can you see what has fallen away?
That's hard to say, without sounding too pessimistic! I would say not much. I'm basically just another person on the block. My beliefs may differ from others, my perspective on life, but at the gut level, when the push comes to shove, I'm just a little "me" striving for happiness. This is wonderfully seen through as a jaw-droping ilusion whenever there is clarity, and from that "point of view" things would be very different (on the inside). But when the hipnosis returns, there isn't much room for clarity, and in the darkness everyone stumbles, regardless of the lights seen before.

Of course, some layers of belief have droped, so its effects are probably not as profond. But on a daily basis, life is still driven by the sense of individuality.

Dunno what else to add. It's the problem of not having questions any more, but not feeling as I'm living the answer...

You didn't seem to reply to my take on the body as being the haven for the sense of separation. Any feedback?

Love to you. Thank you for your patience.
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:25 am

Okay, so here's my take on it---and by the way, I love this line "But when the hipnosis returns, there isn't much room for clarity, and in the darkness everyone stumbles, regardless of the lights seen before."

I get that you are looking to end suffering. Not gradually, but whoopmf, all at once. Even though it sounds like you have those relief moments where you are not living from the hypnosis of the Me, what you are looking to attain is an abiding peace that comes from a complete awakening, like the rocketship getting clear of earths gravitation pull. Am I on track here?

If this is the case, then LU is really just about demolishing the belief in a separate self, but having you LOOK and simply note, that this "I" is not real, it's an amalgamation of conditionings/thoughts/beliefs. I see that you get this already. In this sense, you are through the gate, or at least this gate.

For some people, seeing through the I creates a whoomph of waking up completely. For others, it's more subtle, and old conditionings still need to play out/wind down. Adyashanti likens it to taking your foot off the gas but the car still has momentum.

I don't know Dre, that I can help you here. I sense that what you are expecting--the end of suffering--is more of a profound shift than seeing through the illusion of self has provided so far, for you. When you say the hypnosis returns, can you explain? In the sense that is there a complete loss of truth? Do you fall so deeply into your illusory I that you are living as if it's true? Or do you see it's untruth, and still simply have some emotional conditioning playing out.

The glimpses you had sound like profound enlightenment states. It is possible to have these states remain. That has been my experience, as you know from my blog. But I didnt' do anything to make that happen. That is the province of grace.

Let me know if you would like to keep going here, or perhaps I can bring in some other guides to help me--in case I am not seeing a clear way to help you through. I am not impatient, by the way, just confused about where to go next.

hugs,

Lori ANn

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:22 am

I get that you are looking to end suffering. Not gradually, but whoopmf, all at once. Even though it sounds like you have those relief moments where you are not living from the hypnosis of the Me, what you are looking to attain is an abiding peace that comes from a complete awakening, like the rocketship getting clear of earths gravitation pull. Am I on track here?
Yes, quite on track! No firerworks necessary, just the quiet rest in the natural state. No doubts, no longing, no seeking. Just What Is unfolding like an open book in the breeze!=)
If this is the case, then LU is really just about demolishing the belief in a separate self, but having you LOOK and simply note, that this "I" is not real, it's an amalgamation of conditionings/thoughts/beliefs. I see that you get this already. In this sense, you are through the gate, or at least this gate.
Yes, but do I see it completely? Because this is the end game. No person, no problems. If problems seem to persist in my experince, it is because some belief is still going to this sense of person. My dilema is how to shake it off my back! So, if LU can help me on that, there is still work to do. Unless you're saying that LU only shows theoretically how things work. If that's the case (and I don't think it is), then I'm be done!
When you say the hypnosis returns, can you explain? In the sense that is there a complete loss of truth? Do you fall so deeply into your illusory I that you are living as if it's true? Or do you see it's untruth, and still simply have some emotional conditioning playing out.
I feel inclined for the first one... The sense of "me" seems very real and tangible. Except for the (lately quite often) moments of Clarity (sometimes profound, other times more like a glimpse, a scent of Truth), the "me" is the "great dictator" in here, ruling the emotional, gut, body level life in here. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but the seeing in Clarity is 100% different from the apparent Individual point of view. It's like day and night, enlightenment and endarkenment!
Let me know if you would like to keep going here, or perhaps I can bring in some other guides to help me--in case I am not seeing a clear way to help you through. I am not impatient, by the way, just confused about where to go next.
Yes, I see. Thank you for your honesty. I would say it's up to you. If you feel like sharing or enquiring in some way, bring it on. If not, call in the cavalry! Ahaha! Dunno, I start to wonder if this "me" in here is a hopeless case!

Sometimes I feel like this "seeing" will either happen in close personal contact with someone clear on this stuff, or by just some graceful accident, like reading something in a book, or hearing something and everything suddenly making sense... Dunno.

Tell me somethig, when you are being active, walking (the dog?, aha!), moving, talking, doesn't it feel like it is the "me" that is doing it? I find it harder to see life just happening when the body is deeply involved in activity...

Sending you love!
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