Looking for a way out...

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:52 am

What do you expect to pop out when you look?
Just a clear recognition of no-person. Wondering about this issues often don't deliver a direct seeing, just some intelectual chewing. This person thing is a kind of ghost, untangible but ever present - apparentely. It's this story in my head that just won't stop.

At times I'm really tired of living with this idea of myself. It's like all the emotions and thoughts revolve around this idea of a person, like planets around the sun. I want this idea/belief to drop so the emotions and thoughts can flow freely without a reference point. That way, doubt and suffering can come to a natural end - with the end of the false idea of the owner of them.

But there's a huge difference between direct seeing and mental formulations, and the former is what I'm expecting to pop out. But it's hard to "manufacture" the seeing, it happens when it happens.

Today a friend of mine was talking about something some scientists were saying on TV. They were saying that one day the sun will die and explode, destroying some planets in the explosion and leaving some others floating randomly in space. This idea of a "forgotten" solar system somehow stroke a chord. Like the thought about the vastness of space lended my mind some vastness too. And something so huge helped to drop a little bit the belief in something so small like the "me".

But this moments of openness come when they come, like it is grace that's guiding the process and I'm just here to enjoy the ride.
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:45 am

It's this story in my head that just won't stop.
It doesn't need to stop.Nothing needs to change to see what already is true.
There isn't separate being and never was, but the story was, is and will go further naturally.
Nothing to be gained.
At times I'm really tired of living with this idea of myself
Who is there to be tired?
Who has the belief and who wants to drop it?
Who is there to suffer?

Please, report from the experience, not from thinking and stored information.
But this moments of openness come when they come, like it is grace that's guiding the process and I'm just here to enjoy the ride.
Yes, special moments come on they own and go, as everything in the life-story, but truth is in every moment here and can be seen right now while enjoying the ride or not.
It is dismissed because it is so obvious.

Love

User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:19 am

It doesn't need to stop. Nothing needs to change to see what already is true.
Yes, I know it. I've experienced it. Things are seen clearly, no one seeing, and life unfolds naturally. All things can go on, except one thing: belief in the "me". The mechanics of the apparent person can continue, but NOT the belief in them. That's what I want to stop: not the story itself, but the belief in it.
Who is there to be tired?
Who has the belief and who wants to drop it?
Who is there to suffer?
I don't know. Can't be found, but still is felt. For example, I feel unhappy. What is it the feels unhappy? The body just wants its basic needs met, so it's not demanding anything special. Who or what is it that feels the urge for spiritual healing? Emotions manifest, thoughts gather around this idea of incompleteness, but thoughts themselves are not looking for anything. What is a thought? Is it a living thing to want anything at all? Thoughts are like messages, but they are NOT the messenger.

If a thought says "I want enlightenment", it's not the thought that wants it, it is the thinker (the messenger) that wants it. But where is the thinker? Where is the messenger that is always sending these distress calls, these cries for help, for security, for peace, for wholeness, for something other that what-is? Where is it?

The thoughts are like the voice of the "person", but where is the person? The thoughts always refer to someone, the messenger, the thinker, but where is it? The body-mind is an empty house, but there's always this voice making it look like someone lives there!

It is this paradox (always hearing a voice but finding no one) that makes it so damn peculiar. There is a story about someone told by no one.

I know I exist, but nothing seems to be I. The body changes and it's "out there", clearly perceived as an object, the thoughts continually flow spontaneously, emotions the same, more subtle, but still objects. I always is just some awareness, presence, unmovable, just a pure constant knowing of events. No thing is I, but I always knows things. No observer is found apart from observing, but still it is sensed has some awareness is here and objects perceived somewhere "there".

But basically, there is awareness, felt as I, who doesn't care the slightest about anything at all, and then thoughts about some "me" who cares about absolutely everything! But this "me" can't be found apart from awareness. All there is, is awareness knowing a story about a me. This "me" can't be found, but still its powers remain somewhat unchanged. Life is filtered through the lens of individuality and it always feels tight, there is always insecurity.

Who is it that feels insecure..? No one, actualy. Just insecureness is felt, but its subject is not found. The cause is absent, but still the effects seem to linger...
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:59 am

Thanks for the long piece.
It seems to me that you are very close, but still some expectations about getting rid of the sense of self prevent the subtle shift. For the people used already on observing it is usually subtle change and it might be a problem of leaving also the belief in the observer-entity.
But honest and always fresh looking sees through that too.
That's what I want to stop: not the story itself, but the belief in it.
Who wants to stop the belief in the story? :)
For example, I feel unhappy. What is it the feels unhappy? The body just wants its basic needs met, so it's not demanding anything special. Who or what is it that feels the urge for spiritual healing? Emotions manifest, thoughts gather around this idea of incompleteness, but thoughts themselves are not looking for anything. What is a thought? Is it a living thing to want anything at all? Thoughts are like messages, but they are NOT the messenger.
Let the feelings be there when they come. Let them come very close. Also the thoughts about incompleteness, insecurity. Let them just be there, ok? See what happens if you don't believe them to be true for sure.
If a thought says "I want enlightenment", it's not the thought that wants it, it is the thinker (the messenger) that wants it. But where is the thinker? Where is the messenger that is always sending these distress calls, these cries for help, for security, for peace, for wholeness, for something other that what-is? Where is it?
Yes, you tell me where is it? I couldn't find any.
Thought is though, it says nothing, it doesn't think, it doesn't want. It is part of known reality, comes and goes. Why not? Why resist it?
The thoughts are like the voice of the "person", but where is the person? The thoughts always refer to someone, the messenger, the thinker, but where is it? The body-mind is an empty house, but there's always this voice making it look like someone lives there!
But you don't have to believe it!
How about instead of looking further for the ghost you start to behave as if there is really none there, because you didn’t find it and no one did; And start to deal with a real stuff, not beliefs and superstitions. See how that fits in real, actual life.
I always is just some awareness, presence, unmovable, just a pure constant knowing of events. No thing is I, but I always knows things. No observer is found apart from observing, but still it is sensed has some awareness is here and objects perceived somewhere "there". But basically, there is awareness, felt as I, who doesn't care the slightest about anything at all, and then thoughts about some "me" who cares about absolutely everything! But this "me" can't be found apart from awareness. All there is, is awareness knowing a story about a me. This "me" can't be found, but still its powers remain somewhat unchanged.
All there is – is awareness.
Everything comes and goes in it, every moment. And all the thoughts, all “me-s” arise in it. And there is no special power, in any of them. There is only energy movement, sensations that arise in the body, due to some programmed patterns.
And all this is happening in awareness. Also the sense of self. Inside and outside, here and there are just concepts, useful for the body functioning. But everything is here and nothing is outside of the awareness, of experience right now. Never was, never could be.

Be well!

User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:03 pm

It seems to me that you are very close, but still some expectations about getting rid of the sense of self prevent the subtle shift.
What do you mean by this? I know that there is a certainty when the belief in separation is dropped, and that certainty is only seldomly present. Do you have anything in mind regarding this issue?
How about instead of looking further for the ghost you start to behave as if there is really none there, because you didn’t find it and no one did; And start to deal with a real stuff, not beliefs and superstitions. See how that fits in real, actual life.
The emotional responses still come from a tight place, from a sense of individuality. It's easier to adjust the thoughts to the knowing of no person, whereas emotions are more complex. And this whole idea of adjustment sounds fake, there is no one to adjust anything. But still, deep seated emotions play out the drama of "me".
___

Still pondering stuff in here, clarity is on and off. In regular everyday living, there is still the revolving around some central identity. Sometimes, the idea of a separate "me" is sensed as being rather peculiar and it's funny how it ever came to be so widespread. But most times, it's taken pretty seriously.

Been exploring the seamlessness of reality, how all things appear at the same level, thought being the responsible for further distinctions of me and others, inside and outside, body, mind, world. Only experience is experienced. There is no experiential knowledge of experiencer or experienced! Nonetheless, the seeing is not utterly clear. Thoughts are still being believed to an unnatural extent - unnatural in the sense that is not consistent with direct observation. Still, this direct observation is not yet taking things to the bottom of it.
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:44 pm

Dear Dre,

There is still too much thinking, interpreting of the experience. It is dead stuff and we can't deal with it, neither we need to. It sounds like a writing about something disconnected from you.

We can move further only when you begin just to look and dig into the experience right now and report from that place where life happens.
From that place I am telling – look, there is no me, no you, just life… But it means nothing until you look for yourself.

When you are ready for that kind of engagement, I am here.

Best to you!

User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:07 pm

I'm ready for that kind of commitment, but you apparently do think otherwise. I've been trying honestly and earnestly to look directly into the reality, instead of thinking about it. But it is not always easy, there is a lot of emotional momentum attached to the belief in "me". Seeing intelectually the absence of separation is easy. It's the emotional sense felt at the body's level that seems more solid.

Nonetheless, I've been feeling more clear lately than ever before since '09, when there were 2 clear recognitions of reality. You yourself said 2 posts ago that "I" was close. Now you're seemingly closing the door. I don't get it, but if you think things are not flowing between the 2 of us, that's good. I'll keep looking anyway.

Thank you for all this sharing!

Love to you.
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:43 pm

Hey there,
There is no closing of door.

Keep looking; see what is the message of the feelings.
Reality is all there is, right now.

Any time you come up with something, feel free to share it here or mail me.

Lots of love

User avatar
AwarenessIsHere
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:29 pm

Hi, El!

It's like a ghost - really hard to pinpoint, but very real in its effects! Seems like a "psychological survival instinct", very afraid and vulnerable. Like the body has the instinct to auto-protect from threats to its life, so this "bundle" seems to trigger emotions and thoughts as to always keep itself ahead of the game, protecting itself from pain.
Hi Dre,

Let's take a look here at this statement of yours above. You have three human elements bundled up in one paragraph--instints, emotions and thoughts, yet you point to one "ghost" that gives rise to these three elements.

If we play with the ghost metaphor, which I kind of like, let's assume the ghost is haunting you for a reason--like in the movies, where the ghost really has a message it wants to impart, and where the ghost really just wants to "go to the light." Let's play with this "friendly" ghost and ask it some questions, shall we? (Because I have read earlier in your posts, and letter to me, that you have already seen through the illusion of self, twice!). What you are dealing with is a "spectre of self" that has you believing you are a me again.

So, ask your ghost this: What do you want from me?

Without thinking, just type up a reply. Let me know what you find.

hugs

Lori Ann

User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:04 am

Hi, Lori.

Asking the ghost what it wants from me, is asking the ghost what it wants from itself, for I see no difference between the ghost (the idea of separate person) and me (what I take myself to be, which is a separate person). "Ghost" and "me" being synonymns, it becomes difficult to have a "dialogue" between them and come up with an answer.

What I could say is that what I want is peace and happiness, freedom and truth. At a superficial level, the "ghost" tries to satisfy these using the old mechanisms - relationships, professional fullfilment, etc. At a deeper level, there is the certainty that the conventional mechanisms will not work, because the root problem is not adressed (the identity issue), so it is clear that only a direct and conclusive look at the very nature of my own self will bring peace to the mind.

So, what I'm sensing that the ghost wants is to attain peace and happiness, so it is always trying to be in control of things. Tries to make plans for the future, tries to cope with current situations the best it can, it's repeatedly analyzing what happened and trying to make sense of it. Basically, it's a body-mind manager, dealing with whatever comes up physically, psychologicaly or emotionaly.
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
AwarenessIsHere
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:28 pm

The ghost has simply mistaken the nature of reality, and so imagines the control of outcomes. The truth is so much sweeter--that while the mind is a doer of ACTION, true nature/awareness/no self/void (name it what you will) is the giver of results of action. In that sense, control is an illusion, since cause-effect are not in our control. Action happens, but the results are not ours to choose. When this is realized, Dre, there is nothing but freedom. Freedom is natural, when the realization arrives that outcomes are not in my control and never were. Then, voila, there is no longer attachment to outcomes, no longer a need to imagine control that was never here to begin with.

I'm departing here from the script of looking for an I, since Eloratea took you all the way down that hole, and you bounced right back up.

instead, close your eyes, and tell me where is your "I"? Is it in your body? If so where? Be precise. Narrow down this sense of "I" to a locale. And when you do, give it a size, a color, a shape. Find it, describe it.

thanks!

Lori Ann

User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:38 am

Hi there!
while the mind is a doer of ACTION, true nature/awareness/no self/void (name it what you will) is the giver of results of action.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here! Could you elaborate on this, please?
I'm departing here from the script of looking for an I, since Eloratea took you all the way down that hole, and you bounced right back up.
I'm bouncing back 'cause I don't wanna settle for half-baked understandings. It's easy to nodd and say "uh-uh, I got it!", but the heart knows when there is crystal clear freedom, and a deep intelectual understanding and a handfull of direct glimpses won't do.

And bouncing back from this topic shows how pivotal it actually is, how that is the linchpin that seems to be holding the whole structure. I wanna nail down this thing, and I will.
instead, close your eyes, and tell me where is your "I"? Is it in your body? If so where? Be precise. Narrow down this sense of "I" to a locale. And when you do, give it a size, a color, a shape. Find it, describe it.
Well, this sure sounds like the "script of looking for an 'I'". I like/need it, regardless of the frustrations inherent to such a delicate proccess!

The lower part of the body doesn't seem to represent an issue, it's quite a vacant house, no one in there. It's the upper part that seems to bring the confusion in. The chest and head... They respond to stuff on a moment-to-moment basis, triggering emotions and/or thoughts about what happens. The idea of "me" is absolutely and clearly linked to this emotional/pshycological responses.

This responses, more than being the effects of the action of some "person", they seem to be the cause of the person. Meaning, angry feelings and thoughts are not coming from a person, they are the person. Rupert Spira says that the person is not an enity, it is an activity. It's this loop thought-emotion-thought-etc., that seems to build up the idea of a person, and it's a vicious cycle, with the belief in "me" triggering thoughts-emotions that will again strenghten the belief in "me" and so on.

So, coming back to your question, where is this "I" and what does it look like? I can't locate it exactly. It doesn't seem to be anywhere, therefore the resemblence with a ghost...

In the meanwhile I took several minutes, eyes closed, tracing back the feeling "I". In fact, I ended up in a small ball of emotion in the middle of the chest. No colour or shape, of course, but a small center of energy, that thought is always refering to and reinforcing as "me". Thoughts are quite ethereal, they don't seem to happen inside the body or head, even. Their only "power" seems to be the emotional response they cause.

This is quite mysterious - and wasn't it for the suffering it causes, this whole identity issue, the belief in a "person" and the looking for it would be quite exciting and interesting. It's very puzzling and thrilling and it's frustrating not being able to use all my time to ponder on this... A couple of weeks of vacation would come in handy...

It's frustrating to feel so close to understanding this, but still feel trapped. Ok, now let's look at this frustration. What is it and who feels frustrated?

Frustration is just some emotion (energy) with a story attached to it. The thought-emotion terrifying duet! It's the chest "thing", with thoughts about it. But thoughts and emotions are not supposed to be self-representing. The are speaking in the name of something else. Sad feelings are there to show that something is sad. Angry thoughts are messages showing that something or someone is angry. But, funny enough, that someone never shows up, right?

It's like a defense attorney, laying facts down (thoughts+emotions) about an unknown defendant. Thoughts are the voice of someone that never shows up. Emotions reflect how the person feels, a person that is never seen. "I'm sad!". "I" who? No answer. The "thing" that suffers is never found. What is it that suffers fom unenlightenment, for instance? The body is not looking for enlightenment (or self-knowledge). The mind... the mind is thought, and thought cannot become enlightened. Ultimately, there is nothing that would seem to bennefict from self-knowledge. Body and mind are already doing its thing. Awareness is also already doing its thing, unaffected by anything. What is it that would benefict from "clear seeing"? What is it that craves it?

I'm kinda talking to my self here, but where I'm trying to get at is this: nothing seems to have a problem. The body doesn't have problems. Even if pain comes, pain is just raw experience, not bad, not good. The body doesn't want to be fit or healthy. It doesn't want anything. It is the mind that superimposes a bunch of ideas upon the body. If this body would become paralyzed from the neck down, the body itself wouldn't bother the slightest. The mind yes, could create a whole story about it, but even that story would be about someone, because the mind, regardless of the condition of the body, still can do its thing, which is to think and play around with concepts. So, the mind also never has a problem (even with a crippled body), for it is always doing its thing: thinking.

So, who has the problems? If body and mind function naturally no matter what the scenario is, where is the problem? The problem is expressed through the mind, but it belongs not to the mind. It belongs, supposedly, to the thinker, to the "person" behind the thoughts, the subject thought is always refering to. And so I'm back to the ghost... Something seems to be triggering these thoughts about changing what is, becoming something else, knowing what I really am, but that something triggering the thoughts seems to be more thought, no?

Thought says, "I want the peace of self-knowledge", but thought doesn't want anything, because it is just a thought, not an entity. It is representing something, but it is not itself anything. But perhaps there is no one to represent, and there is only thought feeding other thoughts about a non-existent subject that is supposed to be wanting self-knowledge and peace. All this seasoned with emotional drama and it becomes a pretty thick plot. Such a mysterious tale, where the main character is nowhere to be found.

Does this make any sense, Lori? Thank you so much for your patience. Love to you!


PS:

There seems to be some understanding about this, but the heart feels not free. Now, what this "heart not feeling free" actually means is that there is some constriction at the heart - that small ball of me-ness at the chest is crying for attention. But all that is, is a sensation in the body. And a sensation is neither free nor bound, it is just a sensation, just a "thing" happening somewhere here. Hhhm, I'm kinda lost in here...
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
AwarenessIsHere
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:49 pm

Dre, I love your mind and it's incredible abiltiy to ponder the labyrinthe of paradox. Beautiful to watch, like a mental gymanst really!

You pointed many times now to the heart as this place of constriction, and yet also perhaps it is the key to expansive freedom. The jailor is also the liberator.

When you mentioned to E the idea of the sun exploding one day, and the solar system becoming a ghost, it made me think of another center besides the sun--the heart center. The heart stops, the body stops. The sun explodes, all life ends on this planet. hmmm? I see a clue here.

Question: what does suffering look like in your world? Is it relentless negative thoughts or worries? or is it feelings/emotions?

Let's dig in around this "sufferer" that wants peace. Let go for now of the mental chase for the elusive "I/eye" witness, and just stick with what suffering looks like for you, how it shows up in The Life of Dre.

hugs

Lori ANn

User avatar
Dre
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Lisbon
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Hello!
You pointed many times now to the heart as this place of constriction, and yet also perhaps it is the key to expansive freedom. The jailor is also the liberator.
That's what I felt when I ended up in that ball of me-ness at the heart center. I felt that in there lies the root of the sense of individuality (the felt sense of separation in the body) and, hence the cure to it.
When you mentioned to E the idea of the sun exploding one day, and the solar system becoming a ghost, it made me think of another center besides the sun--the heart center. The heart stops, the body stops. The sun explodes, all life ends on this planet. hmmm? I see a clue here.
Yes? Do you wanna elaborate on that?
Question: what does suffering look like in your world? Is it relentless negative thoughts or worries? or is it feelings/emotions?

Let's dig in around this "sufferer" that wants peace. Let go for now of the mental chase for the elusive "I/eye" witness, and just stick with what suffering looks like for you, how it shows up in The Life of Dre.
What does suffering look like in my world? Well, it's usually a sense of dissatisfaction at the heart, an incompleteness, a sense of something lacking. This is usually emotional, but there is also some troublesome thoughts, worry about the future, the usual stuff, I guess. It's all revolving around the "me" center.

Especially after the seeing of true nature, the feeling that I'm living a lie became more accute, that something else is supposed to be lived. There is this "essence" that's being overlooked. Like a "soul mission" I'm neglecting.

It's this kind of stuff. My life, from a worldly perspective, is pretty good. There is some suffering coming from that conventional realm, but it's not crucial. It's the existencial angst that's much more pressing. An emotional claustrophobia, like being trapped inside my own head and heart...

Love to you!
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

User avatar
AwarenessIsHere
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby AwarenessIsHere » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:08 pm

[quote="Dre"]

That's what I felt when I ended up in that ball of me-ness at the heart center. I felt that in there lies the root of the sense of individuality (the felt sense of separation in the body) and, hence the cure to it.[quote]

So you see this ball, right. It's there, or perceived, in the heart center. My question is this: who perceives this ball of me at the heart?

The exploding sun, the inevitble exploding of the "Me" centered in the heart...just a strange parallel...that's all.

"A sense of dissatisfaction" is always one thing only. The mind in resistance, the mind "minding" what happens. The mind is more than the intellect--it's the body sensations/thinkings/feelings ball that spins itsself into a me that does things, or that things happen to.

So, lets go back to the me ball in your chest -- who perceives it?


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 3 guests