Looking for a way out...

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Dre
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Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:43 pm

Hi!

I've been on the "path" for a while now. And I was fortunate enough to have had 2 recognitions of my true nature, the natural state. One of them was particularly beautiful and powerful. Still the belief in the "me", although completely and blissfully seen through at those occasions, returned apparently untouched.

A great urge is felt here to bring this topic to a natural conclusion. Help is highly appreciated!
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:45 pm

Hi Dre,

let's see if we can hear bring this topic to a natural conclusion :)

Can you describe what the belief in "me" is made of, based on?
For example: table is made of wood, has four legs, board and is based on the floor.

Can you simply LOOK that way at the belief in me and describe it?

Looking forward to your answer!

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:35 pm

Hi, El!

Thanks for your comment. Interesting question you put.

I would say that the "me" seems to be made out of emotion plus thought, a kind of thought-emotion bundle, living somewhere at the chest and head aeras. That's what gets triggered when I try to highlight the feeling of "me". The defensive "me" seems to thrive more in the chest (emotion), the intelectual aspect seems to be rooted behind the eyes (thoughts).

Still, I'm aware of all that energy. So it can't be me. I'm much more than just patterns flowing in the chest/head. Nevertheless, in that sense of "me" lies (apparentely) a great deal of power. It's ME we're talking about here - so says the mind. My whole life story seems to back up that energy of "me". So it ends up not being just some energy - it's a whole life, with past and future (no present really...).

It's like a ghost - really hard to pinpoint, but very real in its effects! Seems like a "psychological survival instinct", very afraid and vulnerable. Like the body has the instinct to auto-protect from threats to its life, so this "bundle" seems to trigger emotions and thoughts as to always keep itself ahead of the game, protecting itself from pain.

The question is, what's there to protect in the emotional-mental realm? There is no entity anywhere in the body (just functional parts working together), and I don't see where an entity could "hide" in the emotional or mental aspects. But it's such an old story... I can't seem to let it go. And who want's to let go of the "me" story...?

This whole issue seems so abstract, so elusive...

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:30 am

Hi Dre,
thank you for the reply!

If it seems abstract and if there were enough abstractions and confusion in your life let’s honestly zoom in direct experience and see what’s really going on; what we can know for sure to be true and what we just unconsciously cherish as true without ever really investigating.
Investigating means simply LOOKING, not thinking

So the belief in “me” is just a belief until we find “me”.

So far there is a feeling of me, there is a sensation in a body, mostly concentrated in head or heart (BTW also in the lower stomach) connected with the “I”, “me” thought, depending on the various situations which our body-mind system confronts.
All just thoughts and sensations, not some real “I” or “me” to be found.

Everything happening by itself.

And now this is a funny part:
The question is, what's there to protect in the emotional-mental realm? There is no entity anywhere in the body (just functional parts working together), and I don't see where an entity could "hide" in the emotional or mental aspects. But it's such an old story... I can't seem to let it go. And who want's to let go of the "me" story...?
Isn't it?

You assume, imagine, that there is something or someone and you can't find it (because it is just a thought, an imagination) and you conclude that it is hiding somewhere and it is driving you crazy…because you believe it must be somewhere.

No need to let go of anything. Everything just happens. So the life story.
Just there is no „you“ to whom it happens.
Is it true?

Look into the life as if it is true - that there is no you.
Look around, go outside and watch how everything moves. Also the thoughts and feelings.
How everything is one big movement, breathing in and out.

Looking forward to your new findings about life!
:)

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:58 pm

Hi!

Been looking into this stuff. Today I had a fine glipmse of reality as it is. At least some filters lifted up (they're back in place, don't worry!=P).

Experience was seen as an undividable whole - a "soup" of experiencing, with perceptions, emotions, thoughts and sensations all "felt" as being at the same level. No inside, no outside. No "me", because that sense of "me" was just another experience happening in THIS every once in a while. Nonetheless, it seems much easier to do this "meditation" still, than doing it in activity. Activity seems to bring the sense of doership, thus the "me".

This insight was not particularly enlightening in terms of telling me what I am. Asking "Who am I?" or "Is there a separate self?" would be just stuff (objects, thoughts) floating in THIS, just another "part" of the undividable whole (contradiction linguistically inevitable, I guess). But it was enlightening in terms of dissolving the sense of separateness/individuality - in those few minutes!

I guess I need to do more looking into this stuff. Seems that the habitual thought patterns have a lot of momentum and it requires continual confirmation for the seeing to be made consistenty uncluttered.

Although today there was actual some moments of clear(er) seeing, usually the simple statement "there is no me" doesn't really help much. It's just a thought, doesn't bring the insightful energy necessary for a "shift" in perception to happen.

Love!
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:47 am

Yes, thought one or another will not bring perceptual shift.
We are not about substituting belief in self with the belief into no-self, or any other.

Don't make this as intellectual inquire or pursuit for some special experience, or final destination. But rather as honest, curious looking for the truth, for seeing what is, already here and now.

Sense of „me“ comes and goes. That is so.
But does „me“, some real entity, come and go?

You believe that you are a doer?

In this moment: do you breath, or breathing happens?
Do you look in the monitor, or looking happens?
Do you read or reading happens, brain processing, thoughts passing?
Do you type, or there are fingers typing?

Can you just watch into the actual experience and describe it without any assumptions what it is going on, without borrowed interpretations of it?

Love

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:50 am

Yes, trust me, I have no interest in swaping beliefs! I've tasted the real juice, so I know what I'm looking for - total resolution and rest in the natural state. That's the "final destination" I'm aiming at. No half baked insights intended!
But does „me“, some real entity, come and go?
Well, I can't seem to find it anywhere, but the feeling of it is pervasive - or so it seems. There is nothing in my experience that could candidate for being a separate "I" - it's all just objects of perception. The only subject is my own awareness, but still the sense of "me" is loud and clear. Probably connected with the body's activities.
You believe that you are a doer?
The belief is present - not so much these last couple of days, but it is usually there. It's a tricky topic. Right now, if "I" want to, I can raise my right arm. Aparently I chose that. But why my right arm? I could've chosen my left arm, or anything else. Who chose it then? It's not like there is an "I" choosing from a list of infinite possibilities of action every moment. Choices just happen. But still, this story of "me" is still being believed.

I've been trying to look at experience just as it is - I've been also reading Rupert Spira's book which talks about this repeatedly -, but it's kinda tricky. Maybe I'm always expecting something to happen or change. This is all tricky... It's like being hipnotised and trying to dispell oneself!

But I'm enjoying this exchange with you. Somehow, things seem to be flowing in a interesting direction...
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:34 pm

Hi there!

I am glad you are enjoying this and it is best if you don’t read right now ther teachings on this matter and focus just on your own experience while we are doing this. It is enough.
For the very intellectual people and people being long on the “path” seeing this simple truth might be too simple. But it is possible. :)

So, your belief in self seems to be based on the sense of “me”. And then the belief feeds the sense and there is a vicious circle.
What if we cut it? If you stoop believe in “me”, what happens?
What is with the sense of “me” than? Does it change?
The belief is present - not so much these last couple of days, but it is usually there. It's a tricky topic. Right now, if "I" want to, I can raise my right arm. Apparently I chose that. But why my right arm? I could've chosen my left arm, or anything else. Who chose it then? It's not like there is an "I" choosing from a list of infinite possibilities of action every moment. Choices just happen. But still, this story of "me" is still being believed.
Yes, choices just happen!
As you have also seen you can’t choose the thoughts. Thought about raising your right hand came and hand was raised.
And what about neuroscience discovery that even that one thought about moving some part of the body came after the brain initiated action?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM)
So no choice at all.
Just post-event thoughts interpreting experience.

And „I“ thought is like a part of the interface between mind and body.
There is sensation of the hunger in the body and the thought: "I am hungry", appears.
There is a feeling of tiredness and thought: "I am tired", appears…

See, just a thought?
But when develops a belief that there is some real entity behind, whole drama begins. Like a virus spread through the life.
And whole this is just about mind's attempt to bring things into a right perspective, so that life can unfold freely further.

Keep looking what's really going on here!

Love

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:46 am

Hey Dre,

How it is going with looking?

If you feel stuck somewhere, write about it.

And especially if you see it, don't go without giving us some description about it :)

Take care

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:27 am

Hi!

Sorry for taking a while.

No big news here...

"Personhood" seems thiner these days, but still lingers... It doesn't seem to be just a concept veiling the true identity (which is never truly veiled, but...). There is the emotional package that comes along, and makes it all feel real. That seems to be more of an issue than anything else.

The clear seeing of "no-person" doesn't seem to come that easy. Looking for an entity in here may go on, but not finding it does not deliever a clear recognition and certainty about its absence. It's like being in a haunted house - not finding anyone there, but very tangibly feeling that someone is actually there. And the feeling overpowers the logic!

The heart finds freedom only through direct immediate experience, and that's not happening clearly here. The hipnosis is still in function, and most of the time action (the enquiry) is taking place apparently from the hipnotized entity's standpoint, so it feels as illusory activity. Doesn't feel real, just mental gymnastics...

Love to you!
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:51 pm

You are not LOOKing for a way out…, just thinking. Big difference.
It is like a story character is looking for a way out. Not possible. He stays in a story.
And yes, trying to escape feels like mental gymnastic.

But, the good news is that it is not you. Never was.
And when you see it story continues; Might be no big deal.

Feeling of being someone is just a natural feeling of aliveness, used to be connected with the thought “me” as a particular character in the story.

Just have a LOOK what is real right now and not just a thought about?
Write on it.

If there is a feeling of some “emotional package” open it. Se what is in; how does it prevent clear seeing.
It is very nearby. Don’t give up! Honest desire for the truth inevitably cuts through delusion.

Love to you too!

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:01 am

Feeling of being someone is just a natural feeling of aliveness, used to be connected with the thought “me” as a particular character in the story.
Yes, that's a good one! Sense of "me" is just some kind of energy - another experience. Still I'm stuck!
If there is a feeling of some “emotional package” open it. Se what is in;
That's interesting too. Feelings tend to bring a story of someone along with them, but, without the story, feelings are just energy (again), very neutral, not necessarily belonging to any one.
Just have a LOOK what is real right now and not just a thought about?
What's real? Experience is real. Experiencing happens. Thoughts always coming and going, always revolving around this little word, "I". Can't find this person, still its stink pervades the mind. Reality is always filtered through "me-ness". It's a lens I can't seem to take off. I try to convince myself that there is no "person" anywhere, try to check it repeatedly, look for it, but the pull is just strong - subtle, but so very constant. There is always this claustrophobia, this tightness, this existencial angst...

And this hide-and-seek gets tiring. Person, person, person... I've been feeling that it might be more efective to just seek out the source of perception, trying to bring attention back to its source, awareness itself. Although it is not possible to find awareness as some kind of object, it was this kind of looking that indeed gave me my most powerful taste of my true nature - the Void just became very clear, ordinary awareness is the ultimate awareness. That was almost 3 years ago, but I resonate a lot with that line of enquiry, "observe the observer". What are your thoughts on all this?

Sorry for not delievering more meaty answers, but I feel like I'm chasing my own tail...
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:57 am

I try to convince myself that there is no "person" anywhere
This is not about convincing. It is simple looking into what is.
And if there is some personality, ok, there is.
So tell me what is that personality, describe what it consist of, how it operates? But, from your experience, with your words. Not a second-hand stuff.
There is always this claustrophobia, this tightness, this existencial angst...
Fear is just a mechanism that prevents seeing. Like a safe lock on the door.
And it shows exactly where you need to go.
Let the fear come close. Just look what is so scary. What is the worst thing that can happen to “you”? Use that fear-energy for the break through.

I've been feeling that it might be more efective to just seek out the source of perception, trying to bring attention back to its source, awareness itself. Although it is not possible to find awareness as some kind of object, it was this kind of looking that indeed gave me my most powerful taste of my true nature - the Void just became very clear, ordinary awareness is the ultimate awareness. That was almost 3 years ago, but I resonate a lot with that line of enquiry, "observe the observer". What are your thoughts on all this?
See does it really resonate or it is just a distraction preventing the seeing of simple truth. Is it just masking the “I” into “observer”? When you observe is there an observer different from observation?
Be honest, have courage and things will unfold as they need to.

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Dre » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:04 pm

Hi!

I find it peculiar that in LU everyone seems to adopt the "negative aproach", the negation of the existence of the self, saying there is no self, no I, no observer. However, there is the "positive aproach", which focus on understanding what it is that exists, rather than focusing on what exists not.

First, I'm having some dificulty in handling the "there is no self" thing. Saying that there is no "separate self" is one thing. Negating the existence of the Self, one's existence (whatever it may be) is another. I'm wondering if it is just words. I know I exist (individually or not, physical or ethereal or whatever). What am I then?

There are some spiritual authors who stress the importance of looking for the source, drawing the attention back to consciousness or presence, instead of just dismanteling the belief in a separate person.

So, in LU everybody's saying "there is no self". But experience happens, things happen, THIS exists. What is it? What is my true nature, the natural state? I know what is NOT. What is then? What am I?

___

Despite the above, I'm still pondering on your questions and advices, though nothing worthy of note is poping out.

Love.
There is no enlightenment; just a belief in non-enlightenment! | http://www.wix.com/naodual/advaitaramblings

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Re: Looking for a way out...

Postby Eloratea » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:59 am

Hi Dre,
nice to hear from you.

Yes, everything happens, exactly. None tries to deny it.
What is it? This is it. :) Label it as you want - life, god, self…
Is here a subject to which it happens? No. Life happens in verbs, not in nouns; They appear just in our description of life.

I was also looking at first with the inquire – who am I, feeling that there is some mystery behind „me“, but it came out that it was like a mental balloon that just popped out and what was left was simple this…

Push in one or another direction, if you really do it with honesty, with desire for the truth (not some special effect), result is the same. Liberation from belief in some autonomous self.

As you know this forum is not for discussing the various approaches but for pointing always at the one’s direct experience and simple looking for what is true. (which goes together with exposing of what isn’t).

It requires really temporary leaving all the spiritual authors behind and concentrating on your own experience and LOOKing into it, right in the middle of your life story.
That is the only way of gaining first-hand knowing. Otherwise it always stays second-hand living.

And writing about your findings is very helpful in clearer seeing, in abandoning false beliefs.
This forum is opportunity for kind of interactive writing, with having some feedback, which might be an additional help.

What do you expect to pop out when you look?


Love to you too,
El


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