May I have a guide??

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Life
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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:51 pm

"I" dont know :(...its interesting to analyze the language.. like... "I" am Felipe.. "I" feel fear..."I" am a person... "I" have a body...maybe it is just a misunderstanding of language..without the "I" would be.. Being Felipe.. Feeling Fear... Being a person..Being a body..the word "I" is a tool for making communication more simple..and it becomes attached to any experience in order to survive...I feel.. I think, I smell... I see.. Going further, when the "i" word is taken out of the experience... there would be no duality...I mean, no feeling feelings, just feelings..no seeing sights , just sights... no thinking thinking, just thinking... I dont know if this is useful bu that came up :p... language is just a way for communication..and it would be more accurate to use it as a reporter machine, for instance.. when I say I was conciuos, would be more accurate to say .. there was consciousness there...
when the "i" word is taken out of the experience...
Is there an I there to be taken out of the experience...?

But maybe and interesting dont care about, what is true right now? I this I that, thought i attaches to all thosse things but are they you? Are you the thought I? Are you sometimes one thing then another?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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EndofSeeking
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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:54 pm

Is there an I there to be taken out of the experience...?
Only in the story..
But maybe and interesting dont care about, what is true right now? I this I that, thought i attaches to all thosse things but are they you? Are you the thought I? Are you sometimes one thing then another?
I cannot be words or thoughts...they are just one part of this whole experience...I see how this me story tries to encapsulate the identity... or it is not that is capable to do that, but when is believed encapsulates the identity...Are you sometimes one thing then another?[ When followed the story and believing that this is "me" I am whatever the story is telling... I am cool , I am not cool, I am depressed... so the story is bound to change because we cannot control circumstances...

Noticing the unfolding of the story of me... it seems so familiar,, and it is so subtle...its like smoke floating..Since it is so subtle it is difficult to spot on...but yes the story is floating...there is nowhere when the story can stick ...the ilusion that the story is sticky is because it keeps playing almost the same content.. almost everyday...


I was randomly reading the forum and came accross with this statement.
however they've kind of forgotten their certainty that thoughts cannot be considered any basis for investigating reality
What I see is that I try to understand this with the mind but this will only be a new story appearing... however it seems that even this trying to understand with the mind.. goes accompanied by direct seeing...there is the seen and there is the narrative about that seeing.

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:18 pm

I cannot be words or thoughts...they are just one part of this whole experience...I see how this me story tries to encapsulate the identity... or it is not that is capable to do that, but when is believed encapsulates the identity...Are you sometimes one thing then another?[ When followed the story and believing that this is "me" I am whatever the story is telling... I am cool , I am not cool, I am depressed... so the story is bound to change because we cannot control circumstances...
How can a story do anything at all? Isn't that just more story?

Let go of the story, is there a you there without it?
Noticing the unfolding of the story of me... it seems so familiar,, and it is so subtle...its like smoke floating..Since it is so subtle it is difficult to spot on...but yes the story is floating...there is nowhere when the story can stick ...the ilusion that the story is sticky is because it keeps playing almost the same content.. almost everyday...
So is there a you besides the story running in the head?
however they've kind of forgotten their certainty that thoughts cannot be considered any basis for investigating reality. What I see is that I try to understand this with the mind but this will only be a new story appearing... however it seems that even this trying to understand with the mind.. goes accompanied by direct seeing...there is the seen and there is the narrative about that seeing.
Indeed stop thinking about it and analysing it or looking what others say and actually look for yourself, observe what is real and what seems to be... Are you doing seeing? Are you the seer?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:04 am

How can a story do anything at all? Isn't that just more story?
Well, from that perspective Everything is just a story, an interpretation about what is happening... interpretation about what "I" understand, about the seeing, about what is felt.... it is all just blablablbla.... In the "realm" of story there is an apparent story happening or the interpretation of whats happenings... so we could say we have two "realms" one is the direct experience/ unfolding of life, and the other it is the interpretation...interpretation again comes only with thoughts, memories, learned words... A story cannot do anything because it is just like a photo of the moment..it is not the real, living ...
Let go of the story, is there a you there without it?
No..the me is a story..without words there would be no "me"..when the thinking stops just for a moment, there is jut life..
So is there a you besides the story running in the head?
No..
Indeed stop thinking about it and analysing it or looking what others say and actually look for yourself, observe what is real and what seems to be... Are you doing seeing? Are you the seer?
"i" does not have the capacity to see... its imposible that the "I" thought is doing the seeing (either sight or awarenes)..for instance you may ask.. are you the feeler?? but when noticed there is just a feeling... that feeling is pure feeling, and it is always on, there is no choser to feel or not feel....even with sight is always on.. when eyes are closed there is blackness..so all the functioning of the body is just running by itself..

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:50 pm

Well, from that perspective Everything is just a story, an interpretation about what is happening... interpretation about what "I" understand, about the seeing, about what is felt.... it is all just blablablbla.... In the "realm" of story there is an apparent story happening or the interpretation of whats happenings... so we could say we have two "realms" one is the direct experience/ unfolding of life, and the other it is the interpretation...interpretation again comes only with thoughts, memories, learned words... A story cannot do anything because it is just like a photo of the moment..it is not the real, living ...
So is the story itself the problem?
No..the me is a story..without words there would be no "me"..when the thinking stops just for a moment, there is jut life..
And when there is thinking? Is thinking separate from life? Should it be eliminated? Is thinking a problem?
"i" does not have the capacity to see... its imposible that the "I" thought is doing the seeing (either sight or awarenes)..for instance you may ask.. are you the feeler?? but when noticed there is just a feeling... that feeling is pure feeling, and it is always on, there is no choser to feel or not feel....even with sight is always on.. when eyes are closed there is blackness..so all the functioning of the body is just running by itself..
So if you are neither body nor thoughts nor thinker nor feeler nor seer? Is there a you to be found at all?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:45 pm

So is the story itself the problem?
Well,, when seen as a story, it doesnt matter. and the most important thing is, if seen that the story is not about me, its just harmless... for instance if the "I" or me was believed to be influenced by the weather...any day that is cloudy, I could have the belief that the cloudy day means sadness..so everyday that is cloudy I feel sad...but not because of the cloudy day, but because of the idea that the wheather is related to me, it is intrinsically related to me. by the same token, when a emotion arises or a thought, we believe that it means something about me...so bad thoughts, we feel bad...
And when there is thinking? Is thinking separate from life? Should it be eliminated? Is thinking a problem
Yes, thinking is part of life...nothing is out of life... Should it be eliminated? to be honest, thinking seems the problem to me, I mean, if the identification is because the thinking process, and on top of that thinking creates suffering, there is a subtle idea that thinking is an obstacle or is the creator of the ilusion... I know you may say that it is not thinking the problem, but not questioning the identification with thought...I see that what I just wrote it is just another layer of suffering of confusion..now thinking should be annihilated..but that is not even posible, because is just part of this body experience.. and who will do that?...Further, maybe is just the belief that there is an "I" that has the capacity to think...when noticed mindfully thoughts are just appearing with no control, however in day to day experience, they are still appearing without control, but with the pronoun "I" almost everytime..
So if you are neither body nor thoughts nor thinker nor feeler nor seer? Is there a you to be found at all?
I feel that all the understanding it is just within the conceptual realm. I could answer you, no there is no me bla bla.. but here there is still identification... this is so frustrating.. I literally try to ponder the questions most of the day ... like who is thinking...is there a me in the body.. you will ask who is there to get frustrated..and I dont know... what are you, I dont know !!!...

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:46 pm

Yes, thinking is part of life...nothing is out of life... Should it be eliminated? to be honest, thinking seems the problem to me, I mean, if the identification is because the thinking process, and on top of that thinking creates suffering, there is a subtle idea that thinking is an obstacle or is the creator of the ilusion... I know you may say that it is not thinking the problem, but not questioning the identification with thought...I see that what I just wrote it is just another layer of suffering of confusion..now thinking should be annihilated..but that is not even posible, because is just part of this body experience.. and who will do that?...Further, maybe is just the belief that there is an "I" that has the capacity to think...when noticed mindfully thoughts are just appearing with no control, however in day to day experience, they are still appearing without control, but with the pronoun "I" almost everytime..
Yes, they also do here, but that thoughts appear always with i in front of it ddoes that mean i is real? The mirage and the snake in the rope, the movie or dream character are seen as real as well...
I feel that all the understanding it is just within the conceptual realm. I could answer you, no there is no me bla bla.. but here there is still identification... this is so frustrating.. I literally try to ponder the questions most of the day ... like who is thinking...is there a me in the body.. you will ask who is there to get frustrated..and I dont know... what are you, I dont know !!!...
Yes its frustrating, cause you try to figure it out and it cant be done... Pondering contemplating wont do, only looking in direct experience without paying attention to what thoughts say. Just observe, nothing else... Look in nature or animals, small children, is any control, any self there or does it all happen spontaneously? Functioning happening...
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:44 pm

Im still here.. will answer in a couple of hours.thanks

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:18 pm

Yes, they also do here, but that thoughts appear always with i in front of it ddoes that mean i is real? The mirage and the snake in the rope, the movie or dream character are seen as real as well...
It doesnt necesarily mean that is real...Thought cannot go beyond thought and prove that the thing that is pointing to is real.. in order to prove that thing, we need to use our senses if a thought points to a car... ok the thought car is not the car.. but then tor prove if it really exists the car, we need to go beyond thought and check...In regards the self, I find myself just thinking and assuming and acting as if its there.. but no self is found...further I see how the "real self" that we assume is just the assumption of self...now I see how they say that self is imagination, because is only the idea of the self.. what I see also that is important in maintaining the self is that the "characteristics" that create self are completely arbitrary, like ok a self has a body, a self thinks, a self feels.. but those characteristics are assigned by thought, they are not real or solid..like the thought "I have a body" " I think" " I See" but those are just thoughts !
Look in nature or animals, small children, is any control, any self there or does it all happen spontaneously? Functioning happening...
animals and childrens are just in the flow.. there is no voice in the head interfering with their actions,... They are a more primitive kind of functioning..because thinking is useful to predict things or to have a good conversation..but in that state of being no self is required...the sticky point is that now, in adult life, when we use a lot of thinking..to see that no self is required for operate, or in other words,, to see that the self has never operated..its like the assumption of self is needed because this world appears to be so complex and crazy, that a "self" is created in order to put things under control..

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:13 pm

It doesnt necesarily mean that is real...Thought cannot go beyond thought and prove that the thing that is pointing to is real.. in order to prove that thing, we need to use our senses if a thought points to a car... ok the thought car is not the car.. but then tor prove if it really exists the car, we need to go beyond thought and check...In regards the self, I find myself just thinking and assuming and acting as if its there.. but no self is found...further I see how the "real self" that we assume is just the assumption of self...now I see how they say that self is imagination, because is only the idea of the self.. what I see also that is important in maintaining the self is that the "characteristics" that create self are completely arbitrary, like ok a self has a body, a self thinks, a self feels.. but those characteristics are assigned by thought, they are not real or solid..like the thought "I have a body" " I think" " I See" but those are just thoughts !
So what is your conclusion? Is this understanding or experiential knowing instead of more knowledge?
animals and childrens are just in the flow.. there is no voice in the head interfering with their actions,... They are a more primitive kind of functioning..because thinking is useful to predict things or to have a good conversation..but in that state of being no self is required...the sticky point is that now, in adult life, when we use a lot of thinking..to see that no self is required for operate, or in other words,, to see that the self has never operated..its like the assumption of self is needed because this world appears to be so complex and crazy, that a "self" is created in order to put things under control..
Yes a sense of self is needed for the body to survive, does this sense of self need to disappear? What is wrong with it? Did you have any control in the coming to be of this sense? Can you see that having this sense of self does not mean there is a self. For months there was focussing and looking, where is it?! iswhere you have assumed a self to be anything there at all??! Just look and tell me exactly the experience right now, what is there now? What are you completely sure of? is self there? Does what you call I point to something real that can actually be seen or you can be directly aware of like all else or is it just imagination?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:28 pm

So what is your conclusion? Is this understanding or experiential knowing instead of more knowledge?
This undestandig for me (so far) is only intelectual clarity... is not gut level experience... I can see the mechanics of self but they are only more information...
Yes a sense of self is needed for the body to survive, does this sense of self need to disappear?
Uhmm not really.. it will still be useful for this Felipe character to play..
What is wrong with it?
As I said to you before, what is wrong it is the identification with the character, the character sometimes i very disfunctional...on another level, the character is just playing out...but I dont know how to see trough the charachter and see that I am not bound by it...
Can you see that having this sense of self does not mean there is a self. For months there was focussing and looking, where is it?
what I see is that in one level there is the story.. and in another level there is the powers that we attribute to that story...the story is fictitious because no self is found besides the story...where is it?I know you dont like me to read stuff in other places lol, however i was reading what means self-concepts in wikipedia... and there was a phrase like that .. self concept it is the image that each person has about themselves...so this is what happens with self..it is a self image created by the brain and that image foundation is that says "all this thinking and attributes are pointing to a real person" but that is false ! it is just a web of thoughts, beliefs emotions...
iswhere you have assumed a self to be anything there at all?
no, what is found though are thoughts about self... feelings about self.. but no self is found in direct experience.. now makes more sense why the self it is so fragile, because it is just made up of thoughts and qualities that are bound to change, always !
Just look and tell me exactly the experience right now, what is there now?
there is a body that is appearing, sights, sounds, thoughts...there is a felt energy experienced also..
What are you completely sure of?
that there is existence here...life..
is self there?
again the idea of self...The habit of self is here...but that doesnt mean that there is a self...
Does what you call I point to something real that can actually be seen or you can be directly aware of like all else or is it just imagination?
again that I thought it is just a mental creation...it is a thought saying there is someone inside the body or the head that is the subject of the experience, but those are just thoughts trying to point to something...

Ok, honestly I think Im starting to see this... this is just a subtle realization that the self is only made by thoughts that there is a self, but no self is found...the brain is just deluding itself adding a self to the equation but self is just an assumption...

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:39 pm

Ok, honestly I think Im starting to see this... this is just a subtle realization that the self is only made by thoughts that there is a self, but no self is found...the brain is just deluding itself adding a self to the equation but self is just an assumption...
Honestly i think so too... :) Think you see this and still waiting for ringing bells or louder bells so to speak. It is all very subtle, impossible to show or pass on without really looking what is really there and what only seems to be [over]there... Great great, any questions mr Felipe? All clear?

Might take some time to sink in.. When ready of course few final questions are waiting, for the fun of it ;)
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:28 pm

Hi Mr Machiel
Well, here there is still suffering and sticky emotions.. perhaps I am seeing this but is not hitting home..
I know that I am the only judge to say that yes Im done or not... now I still feel crappy and pretty much the same... there is no shift ( i know that this could be very subtle). One of the hallmarks about this, should be that I dont buy all the suffering story...
Dont know what to do from here..
As I said in the previous post, the mechanics of self are much more clear, but all suffering is pretty much the same and it hurts.
any comments my friend?

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:28 pm

Well, here there is still suffering and sticky emotions.. perhaps I am seeing this but is not hitting home..
Suffering, sticky emotions do they mean there is a me, how? Is there someone for it to hit home, where?
I know that I am the only judge to say that yes Im done or not... now I still feel crappy and pretty much the same... there is no shift ( i know that this could be very subtle). One of the hallmarks about this, should be that I dont buy all the suffering story...
What I is there to not buy the story? Its a story running in the head of a me suffering or a me not suffering or a me seeing no self or being the Self. All stories belonging to no one...
Dont know what to do from here..
Who doesnt know? This isnt about doing something differently, in fact it isnt about doing or not doing at all, not even about me getting you to see there is no me cause then there would be a me and a you. Its hopeless for a me... We say there already is no me but only life or being or what is and seeing this can occur, or not, its mine nor your responsibility nor a real process from A to B.
As I said in the previous post, the mechanics of self are much more clear, but all suffering is pretty much the same and it hurts.
For whom are they more clear? Affraid suffering and pain are a part of life, of the whole, just like enjoyment or pleasure, in the story there might be someone or thing to help but has nothing to do with there being separation or not.
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

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Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:41 pm

Suffering, sticky emotions do they mean there is a me, how? Is there someone for it to hit home, where?
No, it doesnt mean that there is a me... There is no one to hit home, because that one will be just a thought saying.. I am hitting home..
What I is there to not buy the story? Its a story running in the head of a me suffering or a me not suffering or a me seeing no self or being the Self. All stories belonging to no one...
Yes again, it is just a thought "I am buying the story"
Who doesnt know?
Again this comes from identifying with thought... A thought appears about the story of "trying to get it" and then its believed..
For whom are they more clear?
Just thinkinig again.... What Ive been reflecting upon these days, is that the body and emotions have their own rythim, they come and go like the weather... then comes thought and creates stories about this feelings, like.. I am seeing this.. I am not seeing this etc... but that is just an unconcuios belief that because there is a X feeling, then "I am not seeing this" .. I think I will look for the one who is feeling.. because the thought I feel cant feel..


Well, as we spoke yesterday over the chat.. I want to clarify that being a perfectionist I dont want just gain a philosophy of no self here...that would be useless... I read somewhere a guy that was "gruaduated" on this forum, but he was saying that the understanding is pretty much intelectual....So I am being very honest here and I will not pretend to be a "liberated" or someone who passed the gate just out of philosophy of no self...

My expectations, maybe you already know some of them.. but I see that I try to see the proof that I am seeing this "correctly" ... like feeling non stickyness or have a sense of "all is good" , or a sense of expansion... Reading this I think it would be useful to look for what "correctly" means.. I know also that as an underlying expectation I am waiting for a shift, not a big bang but a subtle aha.. I see that there is a fixation about feelings and if they don tchange "I am not seeing this"(thats the thought)

Thanks Machiel =)


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