May I have a guide??

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Life
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 pm
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:28 am

Well the body has no problem with feelings... and feelings are just feelings.. the "I" is the mind that put some limits to what to feel or what to not feel..somewhere along the path there was a contraction, fear or repulsion against some feelings and then the response is re-inforced..
Are you really the mind?

Do you exist in any way shape or form?

Yes we can take it to the facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/241097475942811/ just request membership there...
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:07 pm

Are you really the mind?
The sense of self here it feels velcroed to the mind... Mind comes and goes with its movements but there is some continuous sense of a subject.
Do you exist in any way shape or form?
Similar to above question. When looked mindfully the self is seen as just a narrative that includes the I thought in almost every sentence.. There is still sense of being the owner of experience or the one that life is happening to.. sometimes I could say the Victim of life ... the one who is recieving all the suffering and bad feelings and has psichological wounds...
Why are you here
Im here because I want to be free... I can see from first hand experience how painful is to be identified with the endless stories of the mind... they are very negative most of the time

User avatar
Life
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 pm
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:03 pm

Im here because I want to be free... I can see from first hand experience how painful is to be identified with the endless stories of the mind... they are very negative most of the time
Possitive or negative thinking will keep happening, do you have any control at all how thinking goes?

Isnt i itself just another thought?
the one who is recieving all the suffering and bad feelings and has psichological wounds...
Where is this one? know it totally feels like it does exists and is you but where is it?
The sense of self here it feels velcroed to the mind... Mind comes and goes with its movements but there is some continuous sense of a subject.
but are you the mind? of course there is a sense of a subject but is what you currently see as subject or you really continuous?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:39 am

Possitive or negative thinking will keep happening, do you have any control at all how thinking goes?
no .. thoughts are just random.. no controller.
Isnt i itself just another thought?
Yes, its a thought all thoughts are the same..I think we spoke that over the chat that all thoughts are just the same and there is the assumption that the "I" thought is somehow different or real... but thoughts aren't real.. they are just labels that are used for communication...thoughts are just sounds...like dogs barking... we develop a very sophisticated way of barking.. so we encrypt meaning in sounds that create images in our heads... If i say dog .. I see a dog in my head.. If I say star,, I see a star.. then I say "I" and there is the feeling of the one who is living inside this body... but none of those images are real, or living... I get that as Ilona says that there is no me as there is no Batman.. because I can think ohh thats a dog , and the label in that moment points to a real dog.. so the label "I"/ "Felipe" is believed because of the asumption that now, in the present moment, there should be someone living life... there cant be just life living wihtout me..that is what we learn.. I know we are questioning if that its real..
For instance typing this answer, I dont even know that I was about to say all of the above... its just automatic. But in some level I still believe that I am doing the action..it like unvelibable that there is no person inside this body and life is just living...
Where is this one? know it totally feels like it does exists and is you but where is it?
yyes that receiver is a story, I can see that ... its just the thought "life is happening to me" or I am feeling this.. and then comes the flavor that, that's the case. so the I is just the assumption of the "I"...the "I" is created in the moment of thinking about the "I"..or not thinking because the narrative continues to include the "I" to refer to this body but the belief that that assumption is real... I have a question, I could say "the body is feeling this" and that sounds more accurate but in this case there is still a subject assumed right "the body".. and the object, the feeling. so the more accurate or real one should be the body is appearing as that feeling, because even the body is a felt sense, there is no feelings happening to a feeling.. there is just one feeling. I don't know if that sounds clear
but are you the mind? of course there is a sense of a subject but is what you currently see as subject or you really continuous?
Well, mind is movement, is constant change..mind appears in a ground , a context that is able to embrace all mind movements..I could say that mind is appearing to me.
It is not continuous... in this point however there is the capacity to feel, taste, see, hear, and that is continuous (in wake state), if that is attributed to a "self" then there is the delusion that the self is continuous. but the thought "I hear" is not continous,, it cant be there 24/7.. so what continuous are the senses.. not the self..

User avatar
Life
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 pm
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:42 pm

Right what is believed to be self is not continuous, how can it be you? So are you a sense?

Thoughts are real but come and go, are you a thought?

There is a unique personality which appears, do you have any choice how it appears?

What should change or happen? Look beyond thinking about it, do you exist somewhere?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:40 pm

Right what is believed to be self is not continuous, how can it be you? So are you a sense?
What you are pointing to iss that I am the aliveness, in all of its forms? in other words, I am the thinking process but I am also any experience that is experienced here? I say this because once is seen that thought is not the main identity (or the only one) but just one of the many aspects of life... No I cant be a sense, I cant be a particular thing..
What Im seeing here is that through our minds we start to think that we are just one thing in particular, but thats not possible..I could say I am the whole experience or none of that... That may sound like advaita stuff but its really accurate.. how can I be lets say the churning in my stomach. or that churning in my stomach be part of "me" (defective self most of the time) when there is a whole experience that is discarded in order to say that... Its like the story or sense of me is characterized for ignore most of the experience and pick up some stuff and say this is "me" .
Thoughts are real but come and go, are you a thought?
No I am not a thought
There is a unique personality which appears, do you have any choice how it appears?
well on top of that personality there is the idea that in some situations should be different, but that is also part of the whole characteristics that make the personality.... the personality is just unfolding and responding to the environment.. I guess that idea that the personality should be different just comes from the belief that there is control, (even just 1% of control belief is a hope for being stubborn and try to change the personality)
What should change or happen? Look beyond thinking about it, do you exist somewhere?
Yes, yesterday I was about to sleep and started to ponder this question. What I see is that I was still stubbornly try to see the no-self... and then I said, wait a minute, if the self is not real, this is already the experience of no self, how can it be different from this? this is IT. there was a subtle relief in the body while seeing that.. In what should change or happen.. I think that I still try to measure if here there is really "no self" experience by checking the stickyness of thoughts and emotions, and fears that arise... I know you say that they will continue to arise ...What is important at this point?? So the no self experience is already the case right? I mean if there never was a self, how can it be the no-self experience any different than this?
Thanks man

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:44 pm

so this is just the drop of a belief?

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:46 pm

What Ive been seeing lately is that the answers are almost automatic.. when at the beginning there was a lot of struggle

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:33 pm

One thing that i struggle is that I read somewhere in the LU book that this is not about convincing yourself and taking a new belief of no-self ... but a deep knowing.. I remember Ilona saying in an interview that for her that moment was a "poof" moment... and then there is no doubt whatsoever about the existence of self...That is not the case here and maybe this is just a paradox because even you say that is a subtle aha ???? and yet they say that its a deep knowing???

User avatar
Life
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 pm
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:54 pm

well on top of that personality there is the idea that in some situations should be different, but that is also part of the whole characteristics that make the personality.... the personality is just unfolding and responding to the environment.. I guess that idea that the personality should be different just comes from the belief that there is control, (even just 1% of control belief is a hope for being stubborn and try to change the personality)
Yes, the control that seems to be is taken to be real, but isnt it so that in the moment you already act exactly how you act and you can already not help but do so?
Yes, yesterday I was about to sleep and started to ponder this question. What I see is that I was still stubbornly try to see the no-self... and then I said, wait a minute, if the self is not real, this is already the experience of no self, how can it be different from this? this is IT. there was a subtle relief in the body while seeing that.. In what should change or happen.. I think that I still try to measure if here there is really "no self" experience by checking the stickyness of thoughts and emotions, and fears that arise... I know you say that they will continue to arise ...What is important at this point?? So the no self experience is already the case right? I mean if there never was a self, how can it be the no-self experience any different than this?
BADABENG! :) They will arise when they will arise and not arise when they will not, things are changing as they change. Yes.
so this is just the drop of a belief?
yes, but is someone there to do the dropping? the belief will drop when seen to be false.
What Ive been seeing lately is that the answers are almost automatic.. when at the beginning there was a lot of struggle
Good! :)
One thing that i struggle is that I read somewhere in the LU book that this is not about convincing yourself and taking a new belief of no-self ... but a deep knowing.. I remember Ilona saying in an interview that for her that moment was a "poof" moment... and then there is no doubt whatsoever about the existence of self...That is not the case here and maybe this is just a paradox because even you say that is a subtle aha ???? and yet they say that its a deep knowing???
Yes it is indeed absolutely not about making you believe anything at all but about telling you to test this one belief in direct experience without intelectiolising ehm theorising about it. It can be as su btle and big bangish as it is, when seen it is seen, it does not depend on thougghts... So time to stop comparing altogether, Felipe, what do you see, do you exist in any form? in any way or shape or size at all? inn or out? above or below? left or? :)
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:38 pm

Yes, the control that seems to be is taken to be real, but isnt it so that in the moment you already act exactly how you act and you can already not help but do so?
Yes, I see this in some way that is admitting the truth and letting go of the stubbornness.. Its obvious that everything its just unfolding.. and it cant be other way..the only thing that can suggest that could be another way is imagination...when I imagine a different scenario for life, there it is then the attempt to control the current experience. but when admitted that it cant be and it will never be different from what it is right now, the attemp to try to change this its not there.
BADABENG! :) They will arise when they will arise and not arise when they will not, things are changing as they change. Yes.
So this is the end of myths Machiel? the end of myths of how life should look like and what should happen... its just accepting life in its most plain a raw forms?..I see that there is some kind of maturity to accept the fact that life is just happening in whatever way its happening, and the different story its no in the least possible...
yes, but is someone there to do the dropping? the belief will drop when seen to be false.
Yes, I get that the belief its not dropped by the separate entity and I get that the separate entity is an ilusion...
Yes it is indeed absolutely not about making you believe anything at all but about telling you to test this one belief in direct experience without intelectiolising ehm theorising about it. It can be as su btle and big bangish as it is, when seen it is seen, it does not depend on thougghts... So time to stop comparing altogether, Felipe, what do you see, do you exist in any form? in any way or shape or size at all? inn or out? above or below? left or? :)
Again, Yesterday I was doing some written inquiry to check this...when checking if I was the voice in the head, I see that I cant be a voice, but the assumption is in the controller of the voice, when checking for the controller of the voice , there is just silence, the thinking its diminished. And then I said, ok I am the witness, but also I cant find a witness there is just pure silence... I think that things are becoming more and more clear. However something is not hitting home or the inquiry is not going so deep for say ... this is it !! I know there is no Felipe!!
One thing that I realized yesterday is that the obsessive focus on thoughts is the belief that these are my thoughts, or thoughts are referred to "me". and further, the thoughts are here inside of me as opposed of the entire world that is outside...When doing the experiment and saying "ok, the sounds you hear "outside", pretend that they are also part of your inner world", and I can see how the focus becomes much broader and it is not narrowly focused on thoughts..

User avatar
Life
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 pm
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:54 pm

Yes, I see this in some way that is admitting the truth and letting go of the stubbornness.. Its obvious that everything its just unfolding.. and it cant be other way..the only thing that can suggest that could be another way is imagination...when I imagine a different scenario for life, there it is then the attempt to control the current experience. but when admitted that it cant be and it will never be different from what it is right now, the attemp to try to change this its not there.
Yes trying to control what happens always takes place in thinking, how things should be is just a concept but is the one having these concepts itself also a concept? The one that tries or not tries...
So this is the end of myths Machiel? the end of myths of how life should look like and what should happen... its just accepting life in its most plain a raw forms?..I see that there is some kind of maturity to accept the fact that life is just happening in whatever way its happening, and the different story its no in the least possible...
Who is going to be doing the accepting? Its not in doing anything different, things appear, bodies, world, life, like the tree appears effortlessly exactly as it does, you just appear exactly as you do already, nothing wrong with accepting what cannot be changed. But indeed fighting with or resisting pain or depression wont work. But is someone really tthere choosing what is done?
Yes, I get that the belief its not dropped by the separate entity and I get that the separate entity is an ilusion...
can only say, who gets it? What you get isnt really that relevant, only what is really directly seen without concepts about it.
Again, Yesterday I was doing some written inquiry to check this...when checking if I was the voice in the head, I see that I cant be a voice, but the assumption is in the controller of the voice, when checking for the controller of the voice , there is just silence, the thinking its diminished. And then I said, ok I am the witness, but also I cant find a witness there is just pure silence... I think that things are becoming more and more clear. However something is not hitting home or the inquiry is not going so deep for say ... this is it !! I know there is no Felipe!!
The funny thing is a ''felipe'' the body/mind appears but is it really you? Is there an i that needs to get to knowing?
One thing that I realized yesterday is that the obsessive focus on thoughts is the belief that these are my thoughts, or thoughts are referred to "me". and further, the thoughts are here inside of me as opposed of the entire world that is outside...When doing the experiment and saying "ok, the sounds you hear "outside", pretend that they are also part of your inner world", and I can see how the focus becomes much broader and it is not narrowly focused on thoughts..
Right, the identification with thoughts while they just float by like clouds, doesnt the thought i too? Or is it always there?
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:04 pm

Yes trying to control what happens always takes place in thinking, how things should be is just a concept but is the one having these concepts itself also a concept? The one that tries or not tries...
Yes, that one is made up of thought ...like I am looking, I am not looking...that thought is just super imposed on the experience...its the commentary... it is just a voice playing itself out and saying I am walking, I am feeling, I am doing this...and on top of that voice there is the identification with that voice... "this voice is my voice" or "this voice is me"..but what believes in that voice??? if there is no believer it is just the voice believing? there is something that identifies.. but who?? it is just the focus on thoughts that keeps the identification runing? if everything is just within the conceptual realm... the identification its not real, but it "feels" real... They say thought has no power,, but what believes in thought ?? thought itself ? how it creates so much suffering and confusion something that is not real ?
This is what arises here when looking at that...
There is a memory that came up: one day like 5 years ago,,, i was playing Formula 1 game with a steering wheel.. I was driving the car and I thought I was driving very fast and flawless... then I realized that the game was in automatic pilot and I was not driving it Lol.. there were some friend there and they were laughing... So the "I" thought it is just like this...walking happens... then comes "I am walking" ... thinking happens "I am thinking"... Sad feeling arises.. "I am Sad"... it is so automatic and "normal" that we dont even realize that the voice is playing..
Who is going to be doing the accepting? Its not in doing anything different, things appear, bodies, world, life, like the tree appears effortlessly exactly as it does, you just appear exactly as you do already, nothing wrong with accepting what cannot be changed. But indeed fighting with or resisting pain or depression wont work. But is someone really tthere choosing what is done?
Yes so this is the same as above.. "I am accepting this moment".. there is a pretended "I" doing something but "I" is not living ....I can see how it operates .. it is just commentary about the experience.. Like "I am doing the investigation"...
can only say, who gets it? What you get isnt really that relevant, only what is really directly seen without concepts about it.
so everything that includes the fucking "I" word is not relevant.."I" "I" "I"..........I it is just the voice in the head playing itself... its like having headphones with a voice... the ilusion is that that voice .. sometimes matches or it is very smart and gets disguised with the real experience...its like an old radio playing itself again and again and again...
The funny thing is a ''felipe'' the body/mind appears but is it really you? Is there an i that needs to get to knowing?
so looked from that perspective "Felipe" is real... is real as an apperance but the thing is that is not "me" .... That Felipe is a story for society,,, a story character that is needed for function in the world... after all the story is useful for doing things right? we need the stories for comunicate... so the story will keep appearing and nothing wrong with that...its like being able to see that "Felipe" is just a story appearing like everything else...sounds, people, feelings everything is appearing seamlessly and the story of Felipe is also appearing...
Right, the identification with thoughts while they just float by like clouds, doesnt the thought i too? Or is it always there?
But in this case the important thing to see is that every thought is assumed to be thought by "me" "I am thinking" so in that case every thought becomes important right ? because "I am thinking" so whatever thought is running must be heard because is created by "me" and everything that is refered to "me" is important.. my family, my story, my feelings, my money...and my thoughts... I like to notice that everything is appearing (maybe I already told you that) ...and I can do the experiment of saying ok if everything is appearing, lets check if I am everything that is appearing with no exclusion..I am the thoughts, the sights, the smells, the sounds, the body, the feelings..and when looked from that perspective there is no "me" there is just life..

Again, I can see how things become clearer.. and "I" still hope to be done LOL...
Thanks Machiel =)

User avatar
Life
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:57 pm
Location: Arnhem, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby Life » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:30 pm

But in this case the important thing to see is that every thought is assumed to be thought by "me" "I am thinking" so in that case every thought becomes important right ? because "I am thinking" so whatever thought is running must be heard because is created by "me" and everything that is refered to "me" is important.. my family, my story, my feelings, my money...and my thoughts... I like to notice that everything is appearing (maybe I already told you that) ...and I can do the experiment of saying ok if everything is appearing, lets check if I am everything that is appearing with no exclusion..I am the thoughts, the sights, the smells, the sounds, the body, the feelings..and when looked from that perspective there is no "me" there is just life..
Like the perspective ;) But is it a persspective or is it actually true right now? Everything suddenly started appearing, kept appearing and is appearing right now, body andd mind appear, do you appear? Where does the appearance appear to? What isss this i that is all these things, where is it?
There is a memory that came up: one day like 5 years ago,,, i was playing Formula 1 game with a steering wheel.. I was driving the car and I thought I was driving very fast and flawless... then I realized that the game was in automatic pilot and I was not driving it Lol.. there were some friend there and they were laughing... So the "I" thought it is just like this...walking happens... then comes "I am walking" ... thinking happens "I am thinking"... Sad feeling arises.. "I am Sad"... it is so automatic and "normal" that we dont even realize that the voice is playing..
yeah, so is there a driver to life?
Yes, that one is made up of thought ...like I am looking, I am not looking...that thought is just super imposed on the experience...its the commentary... it is just a voice playing itself out and saying I am walking, I am feeling, I am doing this...and on top of that voice there is the identification with that voice... "this voice is my voice" or "this voice is me"..but what believes in that voice??? if there is no believer it is just the voice believing? there is something that identifies.. but who?? it is just the focus on thoughts that keeps the identification runing? if everything is just within the conceptual realm... the identification its not real, but it "feels" real... They say thought has no power,, but what believes in thought ?? thought itself ? how it creates so much suffering and confusion something that is not real ?
Do thoughts create suffering or the identification with them?
so everything that includes the fucking "I" word is not relevant.."I" "I" "I"..........I it is just the voice in the head playing itself... its like having headphones with a voice... the ilusion is that that voice .. sometimes matches or it is very smart and gets disguised with the real experience...its like an old radio playing itself again and again and again...
Where does the bleeping I word point to?
so looked from that perspective "Felipe" is real... is real as an apperance but the thing is that is not "me" .... That Felipe is a story for society,,, a story character that is needed for function in the world... after all the story is useful for doing things right? we need the stories for comunicate... so the story will keep appearing and nothing wrong with that...its like being able to see that "Felipe" is just a story appearing like everything else...sounds, people, feelings everything is appearing seamlessly and the story of Felipe is also appearing...
Yes as long as the story is seen as only a story...
Life...... Are you separate from it?

http://machielovic-justbeing.blogspot.com/

User avatar
EndofSeeking
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:18 am

Re: May I have a guide??

Postby EndofSeeking » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:13 pm

Like the perspective ;) But is it a persspective or is it actually true right now? Everything suddenly started appearing, kept appearing and is appearing right now, body andd mind appear, do you appear? Where does the appearance appear to? What isss this i that is all these things, where is it?
True, it is a perspective. it is a point of view and it is the same saying "I am life"...do you appear? I remember the first (or one of the first) memories that I have about being conscious.. I was in my childhood house...and I was playing at the yard...suddenly the whole world appeared... I remember also when I used to get drunk and reaching a point where I was unconscious.. then again suddenly the world re-appeared..my friends would told me about things that I was doing that I didn't even remember... so the body keeps functioning in the world..not sure where this goes... One conclusion that I see is that the memories need consciousness, because if there is no consciousness we cant remember things (i know this is not a scientific discussion). So when we say "I remember" it seems that should be "I was conscious"...so memories are just a movement of consciousness... That "I" story is just memory right ?? but it cant be created without the fact of being conscious.. To the question do you appear.. I am not sure what to answer... there is a subtle thing that it just registering everything...like in a dark room... every little light is registered..
Where does the appearance appear to? I see fear of the unknown when looking at this question, as if I am about to go to an abyss...there is something holding back fearing that I will disappear.
I was reflecting upon the thing that the body with eyes closed, it is a sensation.. A sensation cannot feel.. so there is something that is feeling the sensation... Same with taste, a taste cannot be tasted...
yeah, so is there a driver to life?
In this moment there is still identification with the me character that owns the experience...its like the experiencing belongs to someone...When trying to look for that someone, its not there..What I see is that the experience is just experience, and that experience out of conditioning is taken to be a subjective experience..Maybe one of the keys to keep this identification in place is the body... the body is separate by space with all the others objects.. so there is a body here, and the whole world out there...I see that this assumption is mainly feeded by the capacity of seeing...with the sights that we have we can say, you are there, I am here.. with no sight, there would be just here,, and even the sound, we would have no idea where are they appearing..

Do thoughts create suffering or the identification with them?
Yes, if not taken as part of "me" (in other words identification). They are just thoughts, harmless...
Where does the bleeping I word point to?
"I" dont know :(...its interesting to analyze the language.. like... "I" am Felipe.. "I" feel fear..."I" am a person... "I" have a body...maybe it is just a misunderstanding of language..without the "I" would be.. Being Felipe.. Feeling Fear... Being a person..Being a body..the word "I" is a tool for making communication more simple..and it becomes attached to any experience in order to survive...I feel.. I think, I smell... I see.. Going further, when the "i" word is taken out of the experience... there would be no duality...I mean, no feeling feelings, just feelings..no seeing sights , just sights... no thinking thinking, just thinking... I dont know if this is useful bu that came up :p... language is just a way for communication..and it would be more accurate to use it as a reporter machine, for instance.. when I say I was conciuos, would be more accurate to say .. there was consciousness there...


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests