mzanin - let's do this

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mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:38 pm

Sorry I caught a bad case of the flu the last couple of days so been a bit out of it.
I notice that being sick, in a weakened state can have a strange effect on the mind (I haven't been taking any medicine/drugs whatsoever)...
Anyway I've been sitting quietly for the last hour, contemplating the creation of the I-thought and I feel it's getting me close, but there is something there that's stopping the realization. I don't know what it is, but it feels like thought is here to sabotage me :( what to do if thought just carries me away?

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:38 pm

Yeah ... quite busy myself so don't worry about that. Just keep looking at what's going on. Even when you're sick ... is there an I that is sick? Really keep with that I thought contemplation. Plus ... is there an I contemplating or does contemplation happen on its own?

Also, what are you trying to achieve there? How are you going to fight thoughts? Who's going to fight thoughts? Who is being sabotaged?
The truth is in here not out there

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:15 am

Have a feeling that fear is a real important point. Just stay with that fear. Just observe what's going on there. What's behind that fear? Is there someone afraid or just fear? Just stay with it ... meet fear fully for the first time.
The truth is in here not out there

mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:01 am

Argh this isn't easy, I've been thinking on the I thought a lot throughout my day, but I haven't come as close as before when I actually experienced fear. I understand that "I" associates itself with the fear, sitting with it might be useful next time I experiences fear.

So another problem or question I have is, who is thinking about the creation of the I-thought? Isn't it just I? But isn't it just the I thinking about the I that is thinking about the creation of the I-thought? etc. etc.? It's an infinite loop... But me thinking about the infinite loop (recursion in programming terms) is just another thought, generated by the I? Who is writing this sentence?

How far should "I" take this? Will this get me anywhere? Where do I want to go? Who wants to go where?
Argh it's endless.

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:09 am

Don't think about it ... this is not about mental understanding. Just look ... is there an I? How does the I come into picture? And if you have doubts about the I just look. Are you typing this message? Are you thinking? Are you triggering the 'I' thoughts? What's real about this?

And yes, don't fight the 'I' thought. As you realized that only adds more thoughts (mind fighting mind) and that will not help with anything. Just sit and observe. Trigger something that is full of I (e.g. anger, childhood memories, look at yourself in the mirror, look at your hand) and see what's behind that I feeling
The truth is in here not out there

mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:12 am

Thanks, I'll get there, I just have to stick with it. Time is not important.
I find this to be essentially the same technique as the Who Am I? enquiry by Ramana Maharshi, with the exception that I'm able to get pointers on here, which is helpful.

It's so simple it bores the mind.

Don't think about it, got it. Just look.

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:37 am

Yes ... it's so simple and it bores the mind. And then mind wants to find another way to get there, a new trick. And then we get to trying 10 ways in 1 year and that gets us nowhere. Really cool to see you're serious about this. I did some Who Am I? inquiry, saw allot of Mooji videos. But I was expecting that there is something to be found. So I was creating false identities. I must be the observer, I must be space, I am that. So that's why the 'is there an I?' works better in the western culture.

This is about some really simple things. There is no I to be found in the actual experience. Everything happens without an I, the I is not needed for anything and then the I comes up and claims to have done it. And it's not even the I that claims it, it's just a thought that gets attached. A thought cannot do anything. There's a strong feeling of 'I' but there is no real I behind it. Just some physical mechanisms. Just like when you look at fear there's just some physical reactions. Sure ... they are very strong since they built their power in 30 years (my case) of conditioning. That's all ... But that should be seen not believed.
The truth is in here not out there

mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:14 pm

I'm have the same issue; expectations about something that is going to be found. Something that will transform my life into a wonderful place without suffering etc. I'm just now starting to think this is just another form of escapism...
I also have the identity issue, trying to imagine myself being something other than what I naturally am. Even just being the meditator is deceiving. No wonder not many people have seen the way; the mind is so deceptive :(

So that begs the question, what is the difference between I and any other thought then? "I" is maybe more than just a thought since I cannot just change my identity to be anything at will, or my identity doesn't just change randomly (wonder if that's what so called multiple personality disorder is). Another thing is where does I/ego/identity come from?

I know these questions probably won't help me get anywhere but it makes me wonder.

Lastly is looking enough? What is looking?
Just looking at myself, the feeling of myself whenever it becomes obvious?
What is the difference between looking and thinking then?

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:30 pm

Manuel, there is no wonderful place without suffering. There is no other world ... this is all there is. And that's good enough unless we try to escape it, unless we search something better. Always something different then here and now. Here and now is all that exists.

Really ... is there a difference between "I" and any other thought? Is there a real I? Is there anything other then past experiences and projections? Where does the I come from? Where do all the thoughts come from? How is the illusion of self created in practice?

Just look at what's going on ... and put a special focus on the I. Don't react, don't analyse, just observe. Look at the feeling of self. Is there a self behind that feeling of self? What if you don't exist? Be open to that posibility ... what if you don't exist? How would that feel?
The truth is in here not out there

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:42 pm

Here and now ... is there an I that can be seen? Does life flow fine without the I? What about after 5s? Is there an I in the here and now? What about when the I thought pops? Is there an I? Is there ever an I in the 'here and now'? Is there ever an I when the mind does not work (e.g. first thing in the morning)? Do you exist in the 'here and now'?
The truth is in here not out there

mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Experience or life seems to happen regardless of an I. But I can't even imagine what it's like for I not to exist. What is the difference between that and death?

There is no me in presence, that is true. Presence kills the I. But it isn't permanent.

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:27 pm

Sure this is hard to imagine. But is it true? Is it true? Sure there is life going on but is it your life? Do you exist? Did you ever exist?

Presence kills the I. But is there an I when there is no presence? Is there anything then a feeling / a thought about an I? Is there ever an I here and now?
The truth is in here not out there

mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:18 pm

I see there is no I, it is simply a mental concept, a very powerful one. Every experience is filtered by it. Is there something before the I? I don't know, there must be something
otherwise how can this moment be experienced? Or is this moment it?

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Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby No_One » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:25 pm

Who sees there is no I? Do you exist? Is there an I experiencing this moment? Does life flow without an I?
The truth is in here not out there

mzanin

Re: mzanin - let's do this

Postby mzanin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:40 pm

If I myself see in myself that there is no I, does that mean I'm just seeing it intellectually? I feel I'm so close, yet I'm still so far. I had a satori the other day; what if my experience was already perfect, nothing to attain. It didn't last though.

I wonder what the problem is that is preventing "me" from seeing through the illusion. I don't even know what me/I is anymore, if I use it in my daily conversation (mental or not) it is almost as if I don't know who it is that is thinking the thoughts anymore. In fact I feel that thoughts are just happening. I want to stay with that, but I get drawn back into the illusion.

My life experiences seem to feel lighter. Truly not knowing who I am is a new concept/feeling for me.


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