dsm1963, this is your thread

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Elizabeth
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dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:05 pm

Hi, dsm,
I am glad to see you here.
I know you've meditated and studied, as have many here. We will start out with a very simple task, just to get oriented.
Is the computer you are typing on, a computer, or your computer?
And why?
Much love, Elizabeth

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dsm1963
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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:30 pm

It appears to be a computer, not mine, because mine implies ownership by a someone who would be separate from all other someones.

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:38 pm

It appears to be a computer, not mine, because mine implies ownership by a someone who would be separate from all other someones.
OK, if we start from no-separation, we have no work to do at all ;-)

What mechanisms do we use to attach a computer to an apparently separate self?
In everyday life we own a lot of stuff, our bodies, even other people.
What is it that makes such claims, and how? How are such claims supported?
This is not on an esoteric level, but the kitchen sink level.
How life looks to a self.

Love, Elizabeth

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:48 pm

Sorry I forgot to check notify me when a reply is posted. I didn't see this message until now. I knew I was giving an answer that sounds like the work is finished, but I would be dishonest if I claimed it was my computer. It belongs to someone else! Lol!
I certainly don't own other people! Perhaps this is because I am not a parent. But I do consider things mine. What is the mechanism? What makes such claims? It is the persistent feeling of being a separate, unique person with a distinct body and mind. Claims of ownership are a way of bolstering this same feeling. It is a loop. It keeps the self alive. This began in childhood with my toys and is seemingly unending. Things seem to be an extension of the self. They seem to give it a sense of permanence like the seeming permanence of the object. When confronted with the impermanence of an object, another object takes its place, again to bolster the self's desire to be permanent.

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:58 pm

I take that back about not owning other people. i refer to MY parents, My siblings, MY relatives, MY friends. Didn't even cross MY mind to consider this!

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:53 pm

I take that back about not owning other people. i refer to MY parents, My siblings, MY relatives, MY friends. Didn't even cross MY mind to consider this!
Yes, it's habitual and built into language itself, as well as law and custom.
I guess that is why the odd non-dual language, where people try to avoid rebuilding a sense of self by avoiding conventional speech.
And language is how we work with thoughts, our mental representations of the world. They comment on the world, organize it into nice separate categories, and then believe the representation, and the separation.
So our mental representations continuously reinforce an I.
Our thoughts ABOUT the world. Not the world itself.
As we go along here, our practice will be to notice all the ways thoughts are reflecting an I.

Self-absorbed, self-centered, self-ish, self-knowledge, things that spiritual practices commonly address, we will look at directly. Just without the guilt :-)
Let's break this down further.
1/ Are you in control of generating thoughts? If so, how?
2/ Can you look directly at your thoughts, and see how they arise? Not as a scientist, but as a matter of direct perception. There is no right answer, just what you see when you look.
Please don't accept any thoughts about thoughts (stories/knowledge) , only the direct seeing. Then you can think about what you saw:
4/ How is I thought constructed?
5/ And lastly, how often are there gaps where you are not generating I thoughts? In reality? Please note these, especially. See if all life stops when the thoughts are not chatting.

These questions are easily answered as you walk around doing the usual tasks, ordinary life. Making tea, taking out the trash, walking around the block.
Going to work tomorrow.
It helps to write down, to journal all the observations and thought processes. This gives us further insight into how we are constructing our world, and it helps me ask the next question. It's truly interesting, to reverse engineer some of our beliefs about this.
And a very Happy New Year!
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:46 pm

1. Most of the time it appears as if thoughts just emerge in the mind. Sometimes intention can generate creative, purposeful thoughts. Thoughts are usually linked to memory and are repetitious in nature like the annoying lyrics and melody of a song lol. Thought can be what I call a rehearsing of events over and over. They can be reminders of what must be done in the future. Intentional thought is the kind that is generated for a specified reason. Thoughts can also be self-judgments, or judgments in general. In short thought can be about anything real or imaginary.

2. I cannot see how they arise other than they all seem to be my thoughts and no one else's thoughts. I can watch a thought appear out of nowhere. How that happens is not known in my experience. I know I can catch a thought as it is beginning to emerge and stop it from fully manifesting.

3. I-thoughts are constructed around keeping the self in constant need of existence through affirmation, validation, self-importance, self-righteousness.

4. There are gaps in constructing I-thoughts while reading, watching TV, focusing intently upon a task. Life does not stop in the absence of I-thought.

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:35 pm

1. Most of the time it appears as if thoughts just emerge in the mind. Sometimes intention can generate creative, purposeful thoughts. Thoughts are usually linked to memory and are repetitious in nature like the annoying lyrics and melody of a song lol. Thought can be what I call a rehearsing of events over and over. They can be reminders of what must be done in the future. Intentional thought is the kind that is generated for a specified reason. Thoughts can also be self-judgments, or judgments in general. In short thought can be about anything real or imaginary.

2. I cannot see how they arise other than they all seem to be my thoughts and no one else's thoughts. I can watch a thought appear out of nowhere. How that happens is not known in my experience. I know I can catch a thought as it is beginning to emerge and stop it from fully manifesting.

3. I-thoughts are constructed around keeping the self in constant need of existence through affirmation, validation, self-importance, self-righteousness.

4. There are gaps in constructing I-thoughts while reading, watching TV, focusing intently upon a task. Life does not stop in the absence of I-thought.
Good. We are building up a picture of how a sense of self is generated. Through thoughts, which arise from somewhere, we don't really know.
Excellent, affirmation and self-validation. It is also recursive, and self-reflective. Hall of mirrors, as the story builds on the story, ad infinitum, onto death. Of the body, or of the self.
All we do here is to kick out the belief and emotional investment through directly observing this process, this amazing illusion.
We are building up a character that falls apart upon examination. If the thoughts that support the moment to moment existence of the character stop, nothing blinks out of existence, in reality. You've already seen this working.
A fictional self. That owns and interprets experience, and claims to direct it and choose a path for it's self.
Let's check out choice.
1/ As you type away, who is typing? Anything thinking the thoughts as they apparently pour out your fingers? Sometimes, are you surprised by what landed on the screen, and examine it carefully, as if you'd never seen that before? Who owns the thoughts?
2/ And as you sit there, please move a hand. Pick it up and move it to the left. Now to the right.
Who did that? Who owns the hand, and claims to move it?
A thought about a thought would be: hand moved> I moved it.
Can the thought really move the hand? In your direct experience of it?
Please tell me your experience of these two exercises. Play by play :-) And maybe do them repeatedly. Irritation is fine! Fuel for the fire.

Thoughts. ABOUT life. Not life directly.
So, please tell me about choice, other than as a thought.
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:31 pm

1. It appears as if something called I that is identified with is doing the typing. Nothing ever pours out of these fingers! lol There is always amazement at the amount of errors on the screen as I watch MY fingers do the typing. That same I claims ownership of the thoughts even though there is direct evidence that thought is spontaneously generated while typing occurs through the independent motion of MY fingers. It seems as if thought is causing the typing. But thought alone cannot Do anything.

2. The I claims ownership for the action after the moving of the hand. Thought comes after the fact, and the I claims ownership of the thought and choice of the action. Thought cannot DO anything. It appears that there is choice that made the hand move. In my experience, thought and choice come after the action and therefore cannot be responsible for the movement. Choice seems to be claimed after the action since the command comes from outside under your direction. If I move my hand because I consciously make my own choice, the thought of choice appears before the action. "I am going to move my hand." In this case it seems as if thoughtful choice is directly responsible for the hand movement. Without moving into learned explanations of how brain signals initiate things in the body, in my direct experience it appears as if thoughtful choice is responsible. But thought alone cannot DO anything.

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:32 pm

"Thoughts alone cannot do anything." We'll test that. Make sure.
"thoughtful choice" Can we strip that down just bit more, and see if choice is a thought. And only a thought?
1/ Are thoughts ABOUT choice, thoughts ABOUT thoughts?
(If you know the story, it's turtles, all the way down :-)

I'd like you to go about life for a while, looking at the times where you know you experience something directly, and the times when you are aware that thoughts are 'owning' the experience.

Perhaps you are more advanced than I was, but I discovered that thought was mediating almost every experience I was aware of. When direct experience was known, it was as if that experience did not exist, until it was appropriated by the I. Which cast a new light on my supposed life history.

I'd like you to look at the places where the I thought comes in after such a period. You can be having thoughts without an I attached, as you know. Example: Laundry pile is high. Sort for colours. Add detergent, hmm, getting low. Use normal setting for jeans.

2/ And ask yourself: was an I needed to open that cupboard door? Do the laundry? Pick up the phone? Drive to work?
3/ How much of a self is needed for life?
4/ How much of life just flows without a self, in reality?

This may take a while, or not, but if you keep bringing focus to exactly HOW MUCH self is needed,in REALITY, the thoughts will be experienced in a new way. It may be uncomfortable at first, just ignore those thoughts :-) and keep up the practice. Please write me as you go, stream of consciousness works very well for this. We're hunting something and we may need to be able to backtrack.
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:39 pm

1. It's a hot summer day and I think, "I want to go to the beach (Lake Michigan). Oh but if I go to the beach after noon the parking lots will be full and parking on residential streets is not allowed (been towed before). I'm not a morning person, so the odds of getting to the beach parking lots before noon are slim. So do I chance driving all the way there only to have to be turned away? I cannot make up my mind because I really would love be on the beach today. I have to make a choice. I have to think carefully about my choice as it is a long drive and gas prices are expensive, especially when I run that air conditioner! It's already 10:00am and I still haven't had breakfast or taken a shit, shower or shave. That will take about an hour. The beach is an hour's drive. That puts me there at noon. Hmmm. Choices, choices, choices. What to do. Aw hell with it! I'll arrive too late. I choose not to make the trip to the beach. I've been turned away before."

Lots of thinking about thinking and choice. Choice sure seems to be a thought.

.......to be continued.

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:29 pm

I await developments...people do a lot of the thinking as they move around and write this stuff up, but it helps me if you can keep consistent contact.
The process directs itself, of course, but how we connect is here.
If I could have done this myself, I would have.
So it seems that a limited partnership works.
What is up?
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Sorry would have written sooner but I thought you wanted me to take time to observe how much of a self is needed for life before beginning a dialogue.

This morning when I got your message I clicked on post reply and typed away for quite some time. Then when done I clicked post reply and it said I wasn't signed in. My username and password are there by default, and I inadvertently assumed I was signed in. So when I signed in it erased everything I typed. I am too discouraged to type everything over again right now. Someone needs to redesign that feature so that you cannot type a reply without signing in!

When I feel up to the challenge I'll try writing again. Thanks for your patience!
Love,
Doug

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:47 pm

Oh, I thought it was this netbook :-) Have gotten into the habit of copying all the reply, before trying to submit. That way I paste it in after re-logging. Which happens often here, also.
Till the glitch is fixed, suggest you try that. Will report it...we are adding new material to the Forum as a whole.
You are doing fine, you get that extra time to look at how much self is needed after all!
I am interested to hear your observations.
Love, Elizabeth.

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Re: dsm1963, this is your thread

Postby dsm1963 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:29 am

The same f****** thing happened again and I made sure I was signed in. It even showed my username in the upper right hand corner. Something is wrong with this system. Does it time out? I was typing and thinking for over an hour. I'm way too pissed to even think about retyping all this again for the third time. I should have copied it like you advised, but I double checked before sending and I was logged in. I just don't get it. I already have issues with computers not doing what they're supposed to do. This just adds more fuel to the fire. Now you're witnessing the ugly self! Maybe this is enough to get us started.


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