New to This -help needed

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Explain in detail, please, what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Tough question . The illusion is that you have this person inside you. I think I have used the image of a little man inside my head. That this person/self is concrete-as concrete as this keyboard. That this self can be hurt -that when another person criticises an action-it hurts the illusion. How can an illusion be hurt-because the thoughts are corralled into this self. What I mean by corralled is they are stored in a kinda of mind file under "self" .


When I say mind file -i mean no more than a collection of thoughts called self but now Im thinking as I wrote that-that its complete nonsense. It just seems that way. I tell myself a lie when I say that Is it for protective purposes? Obviously lies are told for protection. I obviously get something from it? A sense of control that does not exist and anyway causes more harm than good because life/reality can be terribly random
So the self works by illusion. By taking part in it. An illusion of thought and preservation. Without it reality would be there in a purer form-I think.

I was looking at a group of students today and all I saw was heads. They were heads capable of talking to me. Have temperaments of one sort or another. Tend to act in certain patterns . But these patterns are only habits.

Im rambling here.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:08 am

Thanks, Barry!
Im rambling here.
A glorious ramble that makes complete sense!!

Next, describe how it feels to see through the illusion of self.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:39 am

Well scary to be honest but also quite liberating. There is no longer anybody to be offended by. There is no preciousness. Well at times I slip back into the illusion. There is no history in the sense of self. Yes my body was in such and such a place. Did such and such a degree. I had viewed reality as an interpretation by self but when the self is false where does that leave me-not entirely sure.

What I mean is I think interpretation of some sort will always go on but not through the prism of "This is an issue for me. People always do x to me..yo will never believe what x said to me."

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:29 pm

I think interpretation of some sort will always go on but not through the prism of "This is an issue for me. People always do x to me..yo will never believe what x said to me."
That IS liberating!!!
Is there a 'me' anywhere for something to be done to or said to??

How would you describe seeing through the illusion of self to somebody who was interested but has never heard about this illusion?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:49 am

I lost an hour-spring! Was planning on writing this morn but no time now. Will be back Tuesday or late Monday

Thank you

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:23 pm

How would you describe seeing through the illusion of self to somebody who was interested but has never heard about this illusion?
Got some time:

Well I think you must first explain what the illusion is. Start with taking offence. Ask what is taking offence. If they say me. Ask who is me. They will normally point to their body so ask where exactly is this me as all I see is a body. They might then indicate a feeling inside them-a consciousness. Ask where is this consciousness and emphasis the difference between knowing you are alive and thinking there is a little man/woman inside you. I would then take a scientific route because logic is indisputable in many cases

As to describing it-thats not easy. Hmm. I might use a classroom situation where a student grossly misbehaves. A teacher who is liberated would just deal with the behaviour .ie X you should not strike another pupil . that behaviour is unacceptable." . YI personally would not be offended. I wouldnt see it as a personal affront as there is no self to be offended. I would just focus on the action as that is all there to focus on. You cant hang a reputation on a student as there is no self to hang it on but if a behaviour is constantly repeated then harsher action must be taken. But its just action meeting action.
I am working a 12 hour day Monday so I will try just to pop in.
Barry

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:16 pm

Thank you, Barry, for your dogged pursuit of SEEing during this conversation. You've done really good work here.

Is there any doubt at all that the illusion of self has been SEEN through? Any vestiges of a 'me' that need sweeping up?

i'm going to ask some other guides to have a look and ask any other questions that come up.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:12 pm

Is there any doubt at all that the illusion of self has been SEEN through? Any vestiges of a 'me' that need sweeping up?
Of course there are many vestiges of the self. Its been forty plus years after all. Its difficult sometimes to distinguish in conflict situations whether Im reacting from a "self" perspective or whether Im just arguing an objective case? Does that make sense? Its when people challenge us that we often become most egotistical.

I think part of the process is living in the moment. Am I correct there? I can have ambition. I can want to try different things but in a selfless sense this neither takes or adds to my essential worth. What I mean by essential worth is that all human beings are worthy by just being alive. But our society is constantly throwing us images based around the illusion so its difficult.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Of course there are many vestiges of the self. Its been forty plus years after all.
Indeed! So what are the vestiges of self that remain? Are they habitual ways of behaving? Conditioned responses? Or is there still a clear separation between 'self' and 'others'?
Its difficult sometimes to distinguish in conflict situations whether Im reacting from a "self" perspective or whether Im just arguing an objective case?
From here, arguing necessitates 'a "self" perspective'. Without a self, what on earth is there to argue about?
Without a 'self' there is no 'other' to argue with!!
Its when people challenge us that we often become most egotistical.
Absolutely! And what if there is no 'us' to be challenged? Who becomes egotistical then? We're just arguing with a projection of 'me'!
I think part of the process is living in the moment. Am I correct there?
i think so too. Living in the Now is living in Direct Experience. Feeling the feelings that arise, watching the thoughts that arise, noticing that there is no 'other' to argue with.
I can want to try different things but in a selfless sense this neither takes or adds to my essential worth.
Agreed. And what is present in reality that has an "essential worth"?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:06 pm

From here, arguing necessitates 'a "self" perspective'. Without a self, what on earth is there to argue about?
Without a 'self' there is no 'other' to argue with!!
I'm not sure I understand your point here. Can it not happen that I think x should be done and somebody else has a different opinion? Perhaps arguing is the wrong choice of words as it has connotations of anger and anger is part of ego -is it not?
As for your other points I will return to them in a few days ie fri at the latest.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:25 pm

Can it not happen that I think x should be done and somebody else has a different opinion?
Without a 'self', there is no 'somebody else'. You are arguing with you. You have different opinions; can you be okay with that? Is there some reason why one opinion has to be the only opinion?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:32 pm

I think we agree. Of course there can be different opinions. Thats life. But one view can be correct -another incorrect but in the end of the day they are just that-opinions /views but in terms of language use/understandiing-its x has this view. X being a body not a self.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:09 pm

No; we do not agree. Let us now return to my recent questions which were occasioned by your replies to the traditional completion questions.
Of course there are many vestiges of the self. Its been forty plus years after all.
Indeed! So what are the vestiges of self that remain? Are they habitual ways of behaving? Conditioned responses? Or is there still a clear separation between 'self' and 'others'?
Its difficult sometimes to distinguish in conflict situations whether Im reacting from a "self" perspective or whether Im just arguing an objective case?
From here, arguing necessitates 'a "self" perspective'. Without a self, what on earth is there to argue about?
Without a 'self' there is no 'other' to argue with!!
Its when people challenge us that we often become most egotistical.
Absolutely! And what if there is no 'us' to be challenged? Who becomes egotistical then? We're just arguing with a projection of 'me'!
I think part of the process is living in the moment. Am I correct there?
i think so too. Living in the Now is living in Direct Experience. Feeling the feelings that arise, watching the thoughts that arise, noticing that there is no 'other' to argue with.
I can want to try different things but in a selfless sense this neither takes or adds to my essential worth.
Agreed. And what is present in reality that has an "essential worth"?
i am searching here for the self which you have discovered is illusory.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:55 am

There are too many quotes within quotes for me to follow the above.My basic point is that there can be correct opinions and incorrect opinions. I might say "its going to rain tomorrow". You might say "It wont based on meteorological forecasts". Only one opinion can be right. There is no self there.

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:57 am

I will return to the broader question within 24 hours. I have to buy a travel cot.


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