New to This -help needed

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:27 pm

Im putting it you to explain reality.
Mate, I've been doing nothing else all of this time.
It is entirely up to you to actually look at reality to ascertain if it is true or not.
then perhaps we should just each walk away and I will sort this out myself. im certain not all the fault would be mine!!
You want to play that game? Ok. Fine.

YOU are right. It is MY fault, not YOURS.

YOU are not to blame.
YOU are a good person, don't worry.
YOU have done everything YOU could.
I apologize for MY inability to make YOU see.

This thread is now open to all LU guides who are willing to help out.

Thanks for the exchange and good luck.
My humble apologies to you. I think I just lost patience. The lion's share of blame lies squarely with me. Can I park this for a few days. I did really appreciate the time you gave. Genuinely.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Hi Barry. You are welcome to "park this for a few days".

When you return, here's how we will proceed: i will ask questions; you will investigate deeply, looking for your own truth from personal experience, not what you've read or heard. You will commit to 100% honesty and posting here at least once a day.
i will set exercises in direct experiencing for you to do; these will be an opportunity for you to LOOK. i will point you to the gate; you will do the work, or not.

i look forward to your return.
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:51 pm

In about three weeks my wife is due with our first child so Im not sure If I can commit to posting everyday but can try next few weeks Is that acceptable? If Not it might be best to leave this-for the next few months.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:29 am

Hi Barry! Welcome back!
In about three weeks my wife is due with our first child
How exciting!!! You will get a firsthand experience of how a self is invented by the parents and family and taught to a new person!!! You will get to see how baby's world has no separation; no boundary where baby begins and ends from baby's perspective.

Yes, it's acceptable to not post everyday, but please check in at least every other day, even if just to say "checking in here, nothing to report".

You've been through a lot of pages here, and i want to shift the inquiry to more solid ground. i will begin by asking you to tell me all your expectations about what Liberation is or will be like, how you will know that you've got it. It's been a while since you started, and your thoughts may have changed. So Today, NOW, what do you expect to happen? What does liberation look like?

looking forward to your detailed reply!
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:39 pm

What does liberation look like? Im not sure is the honest answer but here goes
I think its seeing the world as it is and not through the lense of the self. Ie seeing thoughts and actions just as they are-thoughts and actions and not belonging to a "self". The self is a false creation.I think I had this rather trite notion that I would be less judgemental . I think judgement still exists in a liberated situation but not in the sense of 'hes a jerk' but rather 'that action was wrong'
I have and do suffer from depression . While my temperament is somewhat melancholic I believe a lot of my blues stems from not being in tune with reality. Being too harsh a judge and from creating a history and perception of a self that does not exist.

Does any of that make sense?

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:53 pm

What does liberation look like? Im not sure is the honest answer but here goes
I think its seeing the world as it is and not through the lense of the self.
Yes; this is what it is.
I think I had this rather trite notion that I would be less judgemental . I think judgement still exists in a liberated situation but not in the sense of 'hes a jerk' but rather 'that action was wrong'
You're correct; judgment does not disappear simply because the 'self' is seen to be an illusion; and with time you may notice that judgments are simply thoughts that get appended to objects and experiences, exactly like the thought 'self' does.
Experience of "i don't like that" becomes "he's a jerk" or "that action was wrong" in order to shift responsibility (blame) for one's own experience to an 'other'.
But check it: if there is no separate 'self', there can be no separate 'other'.
People routinely behave in ways i may not like; i notice that when i don't know it's happening, i don't suffer. Only when i am aware that i don't like it do i suffer.
When i Check it, i find that it's not the behaviour that causes me to suffer; it's my thoughts about the behaviour!
For example:
My son leaves dirty dishes. i get upset; my story is he *should* clean up.

When i look Honestly, i see that dirty dishes is not what upsets me; it's what i'm Thinking about the dishes and my son that upsets me. And what i'm Thinking is the story i am telling myself about my son and the dishes. It's only a story; story is a collection of thoughts that makes up a fiction.

i have digressed here because seeing through my own stories of "how reality Should be" lifted me out of depression.
In order to be "in tune with Reality", one has to be able to Check one's stories.
We don't normally distract seekers by sending them to other websites, but i'm going to urge you to look into The Work of Byron Katie, which is a tool for seeing through the stories that have us suffer. http://www.thework.com
Does any of that make sense?
Yes, indeed. Thank you for being candid.
Being too harsh a judge and from creating a history and perception of a self that does not exist.
i notice that you are aware that the 'self' is created and does not exist in reality.
Please describe for me how Barry's 'self' was created, believed, and finally seen to not exist.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:48 am

Thanks for your detailed response.
Before dealing with how the self was created I want to ask you about your son and the dirty dishes. Is that Ok? Assuming it is-the dishes are still there. What I mean is -a body left them there. Not you but another body. While you dont see your son as another self or fiction-the fact remains the dishes have to be cleaned up and you would not like them to be left again.

Im not a neat freak-what Im trying to get at-is how do you deal with such situations now you are liberated. Is it a case of your body making a request to him-not to do it again.Its a simple request. A series of spoken words-nothing more nothing less. Even in an enlightened person has the right to avoid unnecessary labour?

Perhaps this is a side issue but I just wanted to clarify it.

How the self is created? Im guessing because as far as I know there is no definite answer. I think it came about through use of our name. My parents used my name. I first realise Im a separate body. We do know babies see everything as coming into their world and everything as a physical unity. You remove a toy from a three month baby-it doesnt look for it. But as the baby gets older it realises its body is separate. Then it begins to believe that thoughts in its head are something else than just thoughts It sees these thoughts as a self. Perhaps because it sees others doing so in a similar fashion it simply copies this pattern.

In terms of me day to day-the self is a pattern. An embedded pattern. Like all patterns it needs an alternative pattern to reverse this. It needs reality. The self collects thoughts and files them under various headings
Thats me being a jerk-Im always a jerk
Thats me being decent-I can be decent.
Sometimes in a classroom I can park my ego because If I get offended let the self operate as a reality I make a mess of it. Just dealing with the reality of the offence works. Im rammbling

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:55 am

Just had a look at that website-its very much like cognitive therapy which I do find useful. Will read more. Might be Thursday by time I get back to you.

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:01 pm

I just realised I didnt answer the last part of your question as to how I realised the self was false. Well irstly I read Anthony De mello and he planted the idea in my head. The seed. I think most human beings realise that thoughts are not a 100% accurate view of reality so that was always there. Then the more I thought of this concept the more it made sense. It has to be true. I sometimes just watch people talking and realise thats all it is talk. Not self's talking. A person cant offend me. His actions are either right or wrong. Thats it. Separate from grasping it here and now there is enough scientific evidence to also know there is strictly speaking no self. There is no point in the brain. No location. If I suffered from Amnesia -how do I function if the self were a true living thing? How does a baby function etc.

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:18 pm

Hi Barry,
the dishes are still there
Well, no, they're not; i washed the dishes.
Doing The Work on 'my son should clean up', i noticed that it wasn't dirty dishes that upset me; it wasn't even my son that upset me. What upset me was my thoughts about the dirty dishes and what my son should or shouldn't do. It's always the thought that 'Life should be different from the way it is' that creates upset. Always. Check it!!!

How do i deal with it differently post-Gate? i notice there is no 'me' to get upset. There is no 'me' that dirty dishes are happening to. There are just dirty dishes happening. And they happen all the time! Whenever i eat the dishes get dirty; when my husband eats the dishes get dirty. It's not Personal. What to do when the dishes get dirty?? Wash them!! So i do!

And yes; it is always okay to request what we want; we need to notice, though, whether we are okay with getting what we ask for AND with not getting what we ask for. For example, if i ask my son to clean up, and he doesn't, i can look at my own behaviour to see where i don't clean up when asked. And then i can clean up, or i can suggest my son live somewhere else where his dishes won't bother me. So far i have chosen to clean up. It makes me Happy to have a clean kitchen. i just do what makes me happy.

Yes; The Work is very much like Cognitive Therapy—only 'on steroids'!!!

You say
the self is a pattern
and then you say
The self collects thoughts
Can a pattern collect thoughts? What is the pattern in reality?
how I realised the self was false ... I sometimes just watch people talking and realise thats all it is talk. Not self's talking.
Good Noticing!!! No 'self's talking at all!!!
Separate from grasping it here and now there is enough scientific evidence to also know there is strictly speaking no self. There is no point in the brain. No location. If I suffered from Amnesia -how do I function if the self were a true living thing? How does a baby function etc.
Excellent! Really good noticing here!!

So, is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Check your direct experience and answer this fully.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:27 pm

Do not have time today to write a detailed response but will do so Thursday.

Thank you
Barry

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:08 pm

Thanks so much for checking in!!!

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:01 pm

Can a pattern collect thoughts? What is the pattern in reality?
No a pattern cant collect thoughts . Thoughts dont organise themselves into a pattern. But thought patterns do occur so would it just be consciousness. I dont know.

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demellolives
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby demellolives » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:10 pm

So, is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Check your direct experience and answer this fully.
Is there a me? No there is no me outside of a body. There was there a me. I have a name which simply indicates which body is being talked to. But directly at times I go around as if there is a me. A me in a REAL sense.I act or think its Real. But its no more really than an actor playing a role .
My evidence from experience is that: if my perceptions of things can change then this "me" is not a concrete thing-its just "thought of the day". Because somedays X behaviour is annoying but other days I shrug it off-even though its the same behaviour . If its so fluid (even chemical) then it cant be a real thing. The chair I sit on is real. The keyboard I type is real but thoughts are no more than thoughts-they come and go . The thought is real in the sense that I know I have it. But the me is definitely not

I hope this makes sense.

Barry

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nonaparry
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Re: New to This -help needed

Postby nonaparry » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:20 pm

Lovely. Thank you.
no more really than an actor playing a role
Is the actor 'you'?

Explain in detail, please, what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


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