Looking for help.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:39 am

I see that there is direct perception and this objective perception. This objective perception is actually imagined, seen in the head, not direct. And there's a direct perception of the imagined perception. The only real perception is the direct "from the inside" one. I can see that.

I guess that while looking for a self, Im looking for a place where direct perception starts. But how can I see that there is no self, if this direct perception is directed "outside", in the opposite direction than the self. This question may sound stupid but it somehow makes sense to me.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:10 am

I guess that while looking for a self, Im looking for a place where direct perception starts. But how can I see that there is no self, if this direct perception is directed "outside", in the opposite direction than the self. This question may sound stupid but it somehow makes sense to me.
The question makes sense. You are at the gate here.
I guess that while looking for a self, Im looking for a place where direct perception starts.
Yes, you are looking if you can find a place where direct perception starts. And - you are not going to find it. There is no perceiver, there is only perceiving.
But how can I see that there is no self, if this direct perception is directed "outside", in the opposite direction than the self.

Because you can't see nothing. There is only outside. There is no opposite direction than self, because there is no self. There is only outside. That's IT.

SEE?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:31 pm

I see that there is only outside, and the "inside" world exists just in imagination, as thoughts. I see it especially while looking in the mirror.

However I say that with doubt. It feels like, if I really saw that the inside world is just in imagination then I would be liberated and I dont feel any different. I think I should give it more time, look at it more. I feel like we came to a place where no further explanation is needed. I just wanted to post today to let you know whats up, but I think I need time to look at this. Btw. thank you for taking the time to help me out with this. I appreciate.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:10 pm

You're welcome, Dawid. Recognizing there is no "outer" and "inner" world, i.e. no separate self, is just the beginning of the journey. I don't know if there is a finishing line...

Post when you feel like it.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:23 pm

Hello again. I haven't posted for a long time, because I wanted to spend some time alone thinking about it.
I can see that there is a world of thought, which is experienced only by me, and the outside world that can be experienced by anyone. I can see that a self can only exist as a thought, because it can't be seen anywhere else. Actually it can't be seen as a thought too, there's just a thought saying that there is a self.

I think I'm stuck here. I'd like to see some positive change in my life. What I wrote above seems like just more knowledge to me. Like I don't get it fully. If you could help me out with this it would be great.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:26 pm

Hi Dawid, nice to see you again!

It looks very much like you are still thinking instead of looking.

It could be that a different guide, or several, could point you to it. I'll discuss it with the other guides.

What do you say? What does it take to get you to SEE instead of think, this time?

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby neeeel » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:48 pm

Hey Dawid, Ingen isnt able to reply just now, so she asked me to take over for a bit

Hello again. I haven't posted for a long time, because I wanted to spend some time alone thinking about it.
Do you realise that thinking about it is going to get you nowhere? If you are trying to think your way there, there will always be doubt. What you need to do is look. I guess you already know this, just wanted to make sure
I can see that there is a world of thought, which is experienced only by me, and the outside world that can be experienced by anyone.
There are thoughts that occur to a particular brain, yes, and not to another. Is there a you experiencing it? I have read through the thread and it seems you see that there isnt.
I can see that a self can only exist as a thought, because it can't be seen anywhere else. Actually it can't be seen as a thought too, there's just a thought saying that there is a self.
Can you tell me a bit about how you saw that self can only exist as a thought? How did you see that theres just a thought saying there is a self? When you were asked to look, what did looking mean to you? What did you do?

I think I'm stuck here. I'd like to see some positive change in my life. What I wrote above seems like just more knowledge to me. Like I don't get it fully. If you could help me out with this it would be great.
Ok. It might be useful to look in more detail at what your expectations are. What do you mean by positive change? What were you expecting to happen once you saw no-self? What is it you dont get? Are thoughts coming up of "This cant be it, surely?"

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:23 am

Hi Dawid, nice to see you again!

It looks very much like you are still thinking instead of looking.

It could be that a different guide, or several, could point you to it. I'll discuss it with the other guides.

What do you say? What does it take to get you to SEE instead of think, this time?

I guess you're right about the thinking not looking part. I'll reply to neeeel's post and we'll see what happens. Thanks for taking the time, I feel dumb for writing so much and not getting something that's supposed to be simple.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:53 am

Hey Dawid, Ingen isnt able to reply just now, so she asked me to take over for a bit

Do you realise that thinking about it is going to get you nowhere? If you are trying to think your way there, there will always be doubt. What you need to do is look. I guess you already know this, just wanted to make sure
Hey. Yes, I think that's the problem. That I'm thinking all the time about it and not actually looking.
There are thoughts that occur to a particular brain, yes, and not to another. Is there a you experiencing it? I have read through the thread and it seems you see that there isnt.
All I see is that thoughts just pop up. Like I'm sitting here, writing this post and suddenly I'm aware of some thought. I can't find "me" experiencing the thought, there's only the experience of it (thought).
Can you tell me a bit about how you saw that self can only exist as a thought? How did you see that theres just a thought saying there is a self? When you were asked to look, what did looking mean to you? What did you do?
There is nothing around me that I can call self. I look around the room and of course I can't find any self. Also, self is not something in the body. Body is body and even if I could see what's inside it I wouldn't find a self. If it's not in the outside world, not inside the body then the only place that's left is the world of imagination. I see that for most of my life there was an unquestioned assumption that there's an I that's making all decisions etc.

When I was asked to look I thought about the fact that there might be no self. It made sense to me that decisions are just made, thought just come up. I tried to find something that I can call a self, but I couldn't.
Ok. It might be useful to look in more detail at what your expectations are. What do you mean by positive change? What were you expecting to happen once you saw no-self? What is it you dont get? Are thoughts coming up of "This cant be it, surely?"

By positive change I mean that life would somehow get easier. There would be feelings of freedom, more happiness, less stressful, negative thoughts. More emotional balance. I think I'm pretty happy and fine but that's what I expect from liberation. I think that after seeing no-self I will have this constant knowing in the back of my mind that life just goes on and there's no Dawid to do anything, there's just an organism living and that will make life more light.

What is it I don't get? I don't know. I don't know why I don't get this no-you thing. It makes 100% sense to me, but I haven't experienced any liberation even the most subtle.

As for the coming thoughts, yes, there are thoughts "I don't get it", "Probably I'm thinking about it, not seeing it", "I don't know where I'm stuck", "I'm not there". I guess that for me this no-you thing is just more thought, just another belief and I must somehow SEE it, experience it directly to be 100% sure of it and feel it in my bones.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby neeeel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:42 pm


Hey. Yes, I think that's the problem. That I'm thinking all the time about it and not actually looking.
Well then, the solution is simple . Look!
When I was asked to look I thought about the fact that there might be no self. It made sense to me that decisions are just made, thought just come up. I tried to find something that I can call a self, but I couldn't.
Thinking about the fact that there might be no self is not looking, its thinking. Looking means looking at your reality to see how things work. So you have in fact done some looking. You say in your last post
All I see is that thoughts just pop up. Like I'm sitting here, writing this post and suddenly I'm aware of some thought. I can't find "me" experiencing the thought, there's only the experience of it (thought)
This is looking at how thought arises. You see that you are not thinking your thoughts, they occur spontaneously? You see that the thought and experience of thought are one? That there is no separation between experience and experiencer? Do you see the difference between thinking about it, and looking?
It may be that there is thinking about what you have seen, after the seeing, which is fine. But dont confuse the two. I would recommend spending some time practicing looking at your thoughts throughout the day, watching as they arise and fade, watching as you get caught up in the trains of thought, then noticing how you suddenly realise that you are caught up in the trains of thought. Notice how objects in the environment trigger specific thoughts.
Remember that thoughts of confusion, thoughts of "I dont get this", are still just thoughts! you can use these to look, just like any other thought. Spend as much time as you can, throughout the next couple of days, observing thoughts, as you go about your day. You dont need to do anything special, just whenever you remember, whatever it is you are doing, use that time to look.

By positive change I mean that life would somehow get easier. There would be feelings of freedom, more happiness, less stressful, negative thoughts. More emotional balance. I think I'm pretty happy and fine but that's what I expect from liberation. I think that after seeing no-self I will have this constant knowing in the back of my mind that life just goes on and there's no Dawid to do anything, there's just an organism living and that will make life more light.
There is no you to be liberated. So, any negative thoughts ( which arent you, and you arent doing them, as you have already seen) are automatic and spontaneous. This means that they will probably still be automatic and spontaneous after you have seen that theres no you. The difference is that you will see that they are just thoughts.

Yes, some people seem to get an immense swing, where a lot of stuff is erased. Maybe they see it clearer than others, I dont know. But for a lot of people, most things are the same, except, they have seen through 1 belief. The belief in a separate entity that lives life. That is all we are looking at here. We are not looking for fireworks and orchestras, or specific mind states, or never ending bliss. We are simply looking at one very closely held belief, and seeing if its true.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:57 pm



This is looking at how thought arises. You see that you are not thinking your thoughts, they occur spontaneously? You see that the thought and experience of thought are one? That there is no separation between experience and experiencer? Do you see the difference between thinking about it, and looking?
It may be that there is thinking about what you have seen, after the seeing, which is fine. But dont confuse the two. I would recommend spending some time practicing looking at your thoughts throughout the day, watching as they arise and fade, watching as you get caught up in the trains of thought, then noticing how you suddenly realise that you are caught up in the trains of thought. Notice how objects in the environment trigger specific thoughts.
Remember that thoughts of confusion, thoughts of "I dont get this", are still just thoughts! you can use these to look, just like any other thought. Spend as much time as you can, throughout the next couple of days, observing thoughts, as you go about your day. You dont need to do anything special, just whenever you remember, whatever it is you are doing, use that time to look.
Yes I see that thoughts are happening spontaneously. I also see that things and experience is one, like we don't know if there's anything behind experience.
I'll spend time observing my thoughts.
There is no you to be liberated. So, any negative thoughts ( which arent you, and you arent doing them, as you have already seen) are automatic and spontaneous. This means that they will probably still be automatic and spontaneous after you have seen that theres no you. The difference is that you will see that they are just thoughts.

Yes, some people seem to get an immense swing, where a lot of stuff is erased. Maybe they see it clearer than others, I dont know. But for a lot of people, most things are the same, except, they have seen through 1 belief. The belief in a separate entity that lives life. That is all we are looking at here. We are not looking for fireworks and orchestras, or specific mind states, or never ending bliss. We are simply looking at one very closely held belief, and seeing if its true.

Alright. All this makes perfect sense but there is doubt, that's why I post here. I guess that when I see that the belief is false, then there will be no doubt right?

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby neeeel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:10 pm


Yes I see that thoughts are happening spontaneously. I also see that things and experience is one, like we don't know if there's anything behind experience.
I'll spend time observing my thoughts.
If you see this, then you are already seeing evidence of no self. You are seeing that what you think of as the self, has no input into what thoughts occur, and when they occur. So you need to do this for every other thing that you think the self does. If you think the self makes decisions, for example, then you need to look as decisions are made, watch how thoughts come up that seem to make decisions. It might help if you want to write out here, everything that you still feel the self does?


Alright. All this makes perfect sense but there is doubt, that's why I post here. I guess that when I see that the belief is false, then there will be no doubt right?
Not necessarily. You have x years of conditioning to overcome. I still have doubts. But each time there are doubts, you will be able to go back to looking, and confirm that it is in fact true that there is no you. You can even look at the doubts. Are you doing them? Are they thoughts? If so, are they special thoughts, or are they the same as any other thought?
Remember, going on what you said above, you are already seeing that the belief is false, arent you?
If you believe that the self chooses what thoughts to think, and when you look, you see that in fact it doesnt, then that is you seeing through the belief. The belief may still be there, but each time you see through it, see its false, the belief will be weakened. Eventually, it will just fall away.

neil

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Hey, sorry for not posting yesterday, I got so out of habit of posting here that I totally forgot.

Yes, I see that thoughts happen spotaneously, I can't find anything a self does. Everything that is done is done automatically, all the movement of the body and other decisions just happen. Just now, I scratched my head and there was completly no thought to it, it just happened. The evidence that there is no self is everywhere. I just don't want to be like "oh yea I get it" while in fact I might not. That's why I'm looking for some certanity, constant knowing that there's no self. I read on www.no-self.com that when liberation happens, you're 100% sure of it, and the guy who writes there seems pretty solid.

Maybe there's doubt cause most of the population doesn't know about this and going against this common knowledge seems pretty insane.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby neeeel » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:04 pm


Yes, I see that thoughts happen spotaneously, I can't find anything a self does. Everything that is done is done automatically, all the movement of the body and other decisions just happen. Just now, I scratched my head and there was completly no thought to it, it just happened. The evidence that there is no self is everywhere. I just don't want to be like "oh yea I get it" while in fact I might not. That's why I'm looking for some certanity, constant knowing that there's no self. I read on http://www.no-self.com that when liberation happens, you're 100% sure of it, and the guy who writes there seems pretty solid.

Maybe there's doubt cause most of the population doesn't know about this and going against this common knowledge seems pretty insane.
It affects everyone differently. Some people may have no doubts, some people may have lots. From what you are saying , "Everything that is done is done automatically", that sounds like certainty to me? Or are there things you arent certain of? If so, what? What parts of a belief in self do you still believe in?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:16 am

I can't find a thing I still believe in. The self makes no sense. I don't know what else to write, I'm tired and frustrated with this shit. 99% of people who get it, say there's a huuuge difference in their life. In my there's no difference so I don't get it. And I've got no idea why.


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