Looking for help.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:41 am

Do you exist?

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:00 pm

I guess that was not what you wanted to hear, Dawid?

The thing to do is dive into the questions that leave you with an uneasy feeling. The ones that you didn't know how to answer.

What you were doing so far is agree on all the points I was bringing forth, and then saying - ok. I see, but so what?

It might be you have wrong expectations about what is going to happen. This is not about a blissful or whatever stage to be reached. It is about seeing life as it is, that which is underlying the stories.

What are your expectations how this is going to be?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:00 pm

I dont expect it to be some blissful state, Im not sure if I would want that. I dont want to be a "hippie". I think liberation means not taking your thoughts seriously. I think it will make my life easier. I also think it will make it much harder for me to get involved in emotional drama, created by me or others. I hope I will see problems more as challenges.

And as for expectations about how liberation happens I think there will be some sudden shift in perspective. Ive got no idea how it really happens, that's just how I imagine it, because of what I've read.

You wrote that I should dive into questions that I dont know how to answer, questions that leave uneasy feeling. That sentence stood out to me, I think Im looking for exact instructions, like "do this, and this, and that and youll be liberated".

Do you exist? is one of those questions that when asked I come to a point where my mind is blank and I dont know what next. Frustration comes with it. Its like "its supposed to be simple but I cant see a way to get this".


So, do I exist? I want to write about how body exists etc. but it feels like writing whatever is a distraction and waste of time. What works well for me is pointing a finger at the body and saying "this is me". I can clearly feel that that's not true. Where can I point to find me? If it's not in the body where else can it be? Im aware of everything and maybe the problem is that I take awareness as me. But awareness is awareness.. it's not controlled by me, attention jumps from one thing to the other, without control. And again, Im at a point where I dont know what else to say, like the answer is not coming to me.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:06 am

Do you exist? is one of those questions that when asked I come to a point where my mind is blank and I dont know what next. Frustration comes with it. Its like "its supposed to be simple but I cant see a way to get this".
"You" don't know what to answer because the (lie of) you doesn't want to be uncovered. "I" is just a thought between others, like you stated in an earlier post. Please reread.
So, do I exist? I want to write about how body exists etc. but it feels like writing whatever is a distraction and waste of time.
The body does exist.
What works well for me is pointing a finger at the body and saying "this is me". I can clearly feel that that's not true. Where can I point to find me? If it's not in the body where else can it be?
It is not there. You don't exist.
Im aware of everything
No. Everything including the story of "I" is in awareness. (You found that out in an earlier post - everything arises in awareness, please reread).
and maybe the problem is that I take awareness as me. But awareness is awareness.. it's not controlled by me, attention jumps from one thing to the other, without control.
Whatever you take as "you" is not it. You don't exist, except as a story, a label, a picture and a number in a passport.
And again, Im at a point where I dont know what else to say, like the answer is not coming to me.
Consider the answer is "no", and you just don't dare to say it..

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:19 pm

Consider the answer is "no", and you just don't dare to say it..

What I don't want is saying "yes, the self doesn't exist" and accepting this as just another belief and acting in accordance with it. Cause I think it's not the point here.

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Ingen
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Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:03 am

Of course you shouldn't "accept". Look for yourself. Tell me what is true.
Is there a self in your direct experience? If yes, describe it.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:04 pm

In my direct experience there is no self. There are all the things that my senses allow me to see. There is the outside world, like my desk, computer, etc. in front of me. There's the body. There are thoughts and emotions. There is awareness. There is no self in my direct experience. If there was a self then I could say that in my direct experience there are products of the self but no actual self.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:45 pm

Who or what is mastering your life? Who or what takes credit for the outcome of your exam? Who or what has a relationship with girlfriend - and who is to blame if it doesn't go as it should?

Who decides how things should be?

Who says how enlightenment is supposed to be like? Who is claiming benefits?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:16 pm

All these questions point to the same thing which I can't name. When I say that "I did this, I did that" it doesn't feel right. When I say for example "I did this project" it doesn't sound completly right to me. Or "I was at the university today". who was? the organism was, but ME?

recently Ive been asking myself that "maybe its just that simple, theres just no thing that can be called self" and it seems to make me think more clearly about this, maybe Im expecting too much and imagining what will change.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:15 pm

All these questions point to the same thing which I can't name.
This is not an in-depth answer. Reread the thread. And then answer the questions one by one. Meditate over them and find out, what is running your life. I mean, something is happening, isn't it? How does your life function? Who is in control?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:38 am

Sorry for the short answer, I should put more work in this.


Who or what is mastering your life?


I would say it's "what" not "who". There isn't any self in the body, there's just the body. I believe that all decisions, all actions that I take are a result of mechanisms installed in my head. Deeply installed mechanisms, related to survival. Body is in non-stop contact with the environment and reacts to it, based on what is believed to be good for the organism. The body does everything to move away from pain and get closer to pleasure. If there are two ways to take and one is believed to be more painful than the other, then the less painful one will be chosen. I say that one is BELIEVED to be more painful, not IS more painful, becase the perception of things differ from person to person. What's scary for one person is not scary to someone else. So body acts in accordance with instincts and programming which is created by our experience.

Who or what takes credit for the outcome of your exam?

I could say that I take credit but that doesn't sound right. How can I take credit for something which was done? For something that just happened? I would say "whoa, Ive got an A, Im good" but thats not true. I could say that the organism should take the credit, but it's like saying that a machine did this or that. If I hear some noise and my head turns to see what's going on, can I take credit for moving my head? No, because it just happened, and the same goes for writing an exam.


Who or what has a relationship with girlfriend - and who is to blame if it doesn't go as it should?


There's just the relationship between two people. I can't say it's a relationship between selfs. When Im looking in her eyes, I cant see a self there. Just human being. Who is to blame? No one, but the programming in the head. If it doesn't go as it should because let's say that I need something else from a relationship it's because I believe that a relationship should give me A,B and C. If I don't get these things then arguing begins. Or if I behave in some way and she believes (for example her mother always told her what men should and shouldnt do) that a man shouldn't behave like that then she will lose interest in me. Or, her instincts could say "this guy doesn't fullfil my needs" and also she will lose interest. After writing this, I realize it sounds pretty cold.

Who decides how things should be?


This is a hard one. I think there's no way ultimate way how things should be. One person will say "it should be like this" and the other "no it should be like that". It's connected to beliefs. For example some guy is trying to become a president. And lets say that there are two people that know him. One person had bad experiences with the guy trying to become a president, and the other had good experiences. One will say "he should become a president, he's a great guy!" and if it's a strong belief he will argue with other people who have different opinion. the other guy would say "no fucking way this guy is a total asshole".


Who says how enlightenment is supposed to be like?


I could say that enlightnment should be like this and that, because that's what Ive read from people who are supposed to be enlightened. I can't say WHO says how enlightement should look like, there are just thoughts (based on second hand knowledge) that pop up when the enlightenment topic is brought up.

Who is claiming benefits?

The organism will benefit from enlightenment.

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Ingen
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Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:11 am

Your description of the organism trying to get away from pain is correct, but there is something missing: direct experience. You describe the mechanism like seeing it from outside.

"There isn't any self in the body, there's just the body." ----- ...And sights and smells and sounds and feelings and thoughts...

"I could say that I take credit but that doesn't sound right. "( for the exam)

How exactly is the outcome of the exam determined? "sound right" is too vague.

About relationships: "programming in the head" is not wrong, but also here you describe objectively, I.e. as a story. (and don't forget the pheromones, then it doesn't sound as cold).

The last questions you didn't refer to your own life at all.

Try again, first person present tense perspective.

-------
Sorry, I might not be able to write tomorrow.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:23 pm

Who or what is mastering your life?


Right now, Im writing this post and Im thinking about other things Id like to do but I dont want to give you a shitty answer, so instead of watching some movies on youtube Im writing this. So, right now what Im doing is determined by my feelings. I would feel bad if I wrote only a few words or if I wrote a post tomorrow. Also, I feel hunger so right after I finish, I’ll go make myself something to eat. So, another thing that makes me do what I do now is the need to eat.

Who or what takes credit for the outcome of your exam?


I wrote an exam a week or two ago and I passed it (not with great mark but still). I feel good that I dont have to write it again and thats it. I can say I wrote that exam but what does that I refer to? no specific thing. here comes the mind block again.. I cant pinpoint one thing that I refers to. its connected with thoughts, emotions, body, all things that Im made of.


Who or what has a relationship with girlfriend - and who is to blame if it doesn't go as it should?


I have a relationship with my girlfriend. All these questions refer to the same thing so writing answer to this one feels like writing answer to the previous one. When I say I have a relationship with my girlfriend, I mean that everything that is considered as me has a relationship. The whole human being that I am.

I see no point in answering next questions because its the same thing over and over but if you think I should do that then tell me.

I see that all these questions point to ME. I cant pinpoint one thing that can be called me. When Im thinking about this it causes lots of frustration, anger and resistance (I guess resistance is the most suitable name for what I feel). I see me as something made of body thoughts emotions but I cant find any central thing that can be called self. When Im looking for what can be called I, I cant see anything, I cant find anything and it causes frustration, like its a wall that I have to jump but dont even know how.

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Ingen
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Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:33 am

Dear Dawid, thank you for your honest description of what is going on. And good that you make the investigation a priority. It is not about giving the right answers, it's about making the experience yourself.

You can't break through the wall because there is no wall. You find no self, because there is no self and never has been. This is not about reaching a certain egoless state. It is about seeing what is already true.

More tomorrow.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:36 pm

I see me as something made of body thoughts emotions
You still see yourself from an "outside" perspective. You take on a higher, "objective" view and see yourself from above as a bundle of body, thought and emotions.

Remember this exercise:
Close your eyes. Can you find a boundary between you and the world?
When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in you head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?
This is the "original" way of seeing the world. Like a cat does. Like you did, when you were a baby. You didn't know you existed. There were good and bad feelings, there were sights and sounds and sensations. There was no you. There was only world.

Then later on you were taught to see yourself from an outside perspective. They taught you that Dawid looked like the other humans around him. While actually, from your perspective, you DON't look like the others. You see a part of the body you call yours, and there are shifting sights and sounds. It is still like back then when you were a baby. There is still only world. Plus a lot of stories about it.

You were taught that this original perspective is called "subjective" and it is considered inferior.

Yes, there is body thoughts emotions, but there is no me made out of them. There is an unbelievable complicated web of processes that are going on, including body thoughts emotions, and it is going on no matter if you call some of them me, or not.

That what I want you to see is that there is direct perception of the physical world, seen from inside. And the me made of body thoughts emotions is a story you are telling about it.


SEE?


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