Looking for help.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:58 pm

Instead of reading my post and replying to it you start complaining about that we are asking "is there a you" too often. (which I didn't even do in this last post).

This is avoidance.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:16 am

Well, maybe you are only thinking your way to no self, and really haven't looked. (If you are bothered by that we are repeating LOOK all the time, you're at the wrong place. This is what it is all about).

I'll give you an excercise about direct perception. Tell me what you find.

--------
Close your eyes and search for the boundary of you. Where do you end and where does the world begin? In your direct experience, how tall are you? How old? How many toes do you have? Couldn't you be any shape? Can you feel a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?

Smell a rose or dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell...

When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in you head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:09 pm

Ill answer tomorrow morning, I need time to do this properly and today Im busy all day.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:34 am

As for "thinking my way into no self" I think that's exactly the case.


I can't find the boundary between me and the rest of the world. I cant feel the boundary between skin and clothes, I can only feel the sensation of shirt touching my body. All that I see is that which comes from sense perceptions.

When Im smelling something there's no I doing it.. Theres the experience of smell, the awareness of the body doing it, but no thing that can be called I in this whole process.

When I open my eyes there are just sights. Theres a feeling that there should be something doing the seeing. my eyes move from one place to another. Also theres a knowing/thought/feeling that something is moving the eyes. But the eyes move spontaneously, I dont know where they are gonna move before they do.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:02 am

As for "thinking my way into no self" I think that's exactly the case.
And thinking is also important. Analyzing thoughts and finding no controller. Recognizing that all "my" thinking and doing is caused by "outside" impulses. Experiencing in real time how the "I"-thought gets attached to other thoughts after the action/decision has been done.
Are you clear about that? Who is driving the car?
I dont know how to get from not seeing it to seeing it.
After your last post, it looks like you know now. Do you see that you have always seen it?
I often see that there really is no me.
How is it when you don't see it?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:50 pm

I can see that the I thought gets attached after the action.

Who is driving? I've got no idea. Movement happens, thought happens but I dont know what makes it all happen.

What I wrote in last post is nothing new to me. I didnt discover anything new, I wrote similar posts months ago.

When I dont see it? It's just like now, I have a feeling that there is something doing everything. That there is something thats a start of everything. When I do see it its for very brief moments. Like sudden 1-2 seconds of clarity every few days.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:00 pm

Dawid is a character that you have created from memories and parental input solely to explain his experiences. A fictional story you tell yourself about what is going on in your universe.

Sometimes there is clarity, sometimes not. Dawid is a fiction no matter what.

The bad habits will remain, the pain in your stomach will remain and the feeling that "there is a something doing everything" will remain. I gave you the example of the train, and you said you understood.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:37 am

Ok, so we could say that I get it but it's not what I expected it to be, right?

People who are liberated said that:

1) they have a very clear map of reality in their head, thinking is much clearer - mine is not, it's same as always

2) life became much easier - mine didnt

3) they felt a shift, subtle or strong - no shift

4) they no longer search for something, for some state - I do

5) (most of them) they are sure about the no self, like 100% - Im not

Im not talking about people like Eckhart Tolle, Osho or whatever. Im talking about people from RT, etc.

I think I get what you say about the character Dawid. However I would like some of the benefits written above. I have none, that's why I think "Im not there".

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:37 pm

I think I get what you say about the character Dawid. However I would like some of the benefits written above. I have none, that's why I think "Im not there".
If you could see that the character Dawid wants to get enlightened in order to get benefits, you are there.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:48 am

I feel like you hit some blindspot here, but I dont know what to reply.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:21 pm

"Dawid" doesn't want to be caught...

The fictional character "Dawid" was invented by your parents and established when you were 3 years old. (They thought it was real, too).

Before that time you didn't speculate about how things looked as if seen from somewhere else. You didn't see yourself as a separate person, from outside. You were your world. There was only world, experienced.

Then you heard, LEARNED that there was a person called Dawid responsible for some of these happenings. You learned to see this character from outside, communicate as if he was real (use personal pronoun I), and a million stories were created around this character. Like the story about benefits.

This outside perspective is not experienced. It is not real. It exists only as thoughts.

Now LOOK and see what is real, right now.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:14 pm

what seems to be real is the fact that there is an organism, living, doing everything. there's a belief that says that there's some Dawid who makes decisions, who is responsible for everything the organism does. like Dawid and the organism are one. but it makes no sense, how can dawid be responsible for anything if he doesn't even know what the next thought or move will be.

there are thoughts going on in the head "this is too hard, Ill never get this shit". its like it all makes sense but theres some barrier that cant be crossed. like, the organism does everything because its alive and theres some dawid that tries to be the owner of everything but he cant be found anywhere.

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Ingen
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:41 pm

Keep going!!!
there are thoughts going on in the head "this is too hard, Ill never get this shit". its like it all makes sense but theres some barrier that cant be crossed. like, the organism does everything because its alive and theres some dawid that tries to be the owner of everything but he cant be found anywhere.
The Dawid character is nothing but thoughts. What is there which is not thoughts?

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:37 pm

So, again..

Ive already seen many times that first there's action and after the action there's "I did that". I've been checking it over and over again and that didn't change anything so I guess that seeing this again and again won't get me liberated.

It's hard for me to write something which I see as true instead of writing something which I read. It makes sense that the organism does everything. It makes sense and I can often see that organism reacts to outside stimuli. There's this sense that there is something which makes decisions and controls the organism. Something which is the start of every thought and action. When looking for it, nothing can be found. It feels like it's some phantom thing that captures everything else.

thought appears --> poof --> "I thought that"

Nothing of substance can be found, still theres this sense that THERE IS SOMETHING. Im trying to go from not seeing it to seeing it. Im trying to get rid of this sense. When Im writing about it, thinking about it, it seems to make less and less sense. Also it feels like its something close to me. Like, if it would disappear I would feel empty. But also it would mean there's only the organism, like a vehicle and it has no limits and can be whatever it wants to be.

What is there which is not thoughts? I dont know, cant see anything.

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Ingen
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Looking for help.

Postby Ingen » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:24 am


What is there which is not thoughts? I dont know, cant see anything.
Look around you. Smell, hear, feel. That's it. It is never empty.

It even includes thoughts- just don't believe them.


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