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Dawid
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Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:02 pm

Hey everyone.

I heard about "there is no you" a few months ago. I can't see it. It seems true to me, all logical arguments tell me it's true. However, I don't have that 100% certanity I think I should have.
I will do my best to answer all questions honestly, not just repeat what I heard.

I work and go to university, but I will try to post at least once a day.

I don't want to write a lot of pointless stuff, so please just ask me questions and I will give the answers.

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:00 pm

Hello there, I'll stay with you till it's over. Let's get to it.

When you say "I cannot see it" what were you looking at? Because you don't just stare off into the distance and wait for something to trigger, no, no, no.

Instead, you test this the way a scientist would test a hypothesis. Test the hypothesis that there is a you, the separate entity that is living life.

Now, the assumed functions of the "you" or the "self" are:

It thinks thoughts. Check that, see if a thinker of thoughts is there to be found. If so, where is it? What shape or form does it take?

It experiences things. Check that, see if there is an experiencer behind the experiences.

It pilots life. Check that, see if there is a controller. How does it do the controlling?

Now try on the hypothesis that there is no you. Look at life through that lens. Does it fit? Is it true?

Good luck.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:14 pm

While looking at the process of thinking I can see that they just appear. I don't see them coming from somewhere, they just pop up. Sometimes they pop up because of the environment. For example I see someone and think "oh god not him again". Sometimes let's say Im doing something on my computer and a completly random thought pops up and I have no idea what triggered it.

As for the experiencer, I cant find any. All experience is possible because of the body. Its really hard for me to put it in words and I dont know if Im right about it but its like for example an emotion already contains a "feeling it" part. Like, no experiencer, observer is needed. However there is a feeling that an observer/experiencer exists. There is a feeling, but no experiencer can be found.

As for piloting life, I feel like I sometimes have control and sometimes not. I often react spontaneously and then I have no control but I feel like I have control for example when Im planning something. But the plans are nothing more than thoughts which as I said earlier "just pop up". I can see now that these plans arent controlled by me, but I feel that Im making them. Like, Im not 100% sure about this.

When Im trying to look at life through lenses that I exists it makes completly no sense. How the self would control the body? would it choose what thoughts to put in the mind? how? how would it control the brain? by sending some impulses? what would send them? it would be like a second brain and one is enough. it makes no sense.

Ill post again tomorrow its 9 pm here. Thanks !

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:05 pm

While looking at the process of thinking I can see that they just appear. I don't see them coming from somewhere, they just pop up. Sometimes they pop up because of the environment. For example I see someone and think "oh god not him again". Sometimes let's say Im doing something on my computer and a completly random thought pops up and I have no idea what triggered it.
Hehehe, it's all reflexes and processes, isn't it? In fact, you could test this even further by trying to think up a few totally random thoughts. Just pop, pop, pop, pop, and see what they are. Try it.
As for the experiencer, I cant find any. All experience is possible because of the body. Its really hard for me to put it in words and I dont know if Im right about it but its like for example an emotion already contains a "feeling it" part. Like, no experiencer, observer is needed. However there is a feeling that an observer/experiencer exists. There is a feeling, but no experiencer can be found.
Yeah I totally get you. When the palm touches wood, then and only then is the experience of palm touching wood occuring. The experience is contained within itself, it's a wonder it was ever thought an experiencer is required. However, the thought/feeling that the experiencer exists is so conditioned that it will keep on triggering, and you just have to challenge it. It's good practice not to take thoughts at face value, to compare it always to the actual reality.
As for piloting life, I feel like I sometimes have control and sometimes not. I often react spontaneously and then I have no control but I feel like I have control for example when Im planning something. But the plans are nothing more than thoughts which as I said earlier "just pop up". I can see now that these plans arent controlled by me, but I feel that Im making them. Like, Im not 100% sure about this.
Haha, I had the most problem with this one as well, and reasoned exactly as you did. Even now it feels absolutely like I have control, but I can't ever figure out how exactly that is done. Nasty stuff.
When Im trying to look at life through lenses that I exists it makes completly no sense. How the self would control the body? would it choose what thoughts to put in the mind? how? how would it control the brain? by sending some impulses? what would send them? it would be like a second brain and one is enough. it makes no sense.
Yeah, soon enough the experience of how the unliberated state was like is going to start fading from memory, and then seeing people talking as if the self exists will start to be weird, like you have no idea what they are talking about. Pretty funny.

Well, seems like you have seen it. We could be done here, but if you have any question or whatever, just drop them here or PM me and I'll answer.

Also, you might have no interest in hearing this, but I just feel like sharing it. Yesterday a book was recommended to me that is central to all this, it's a book called The Ascent of Humanity by Charles Eisenstein. It's a radical exploration of history and the future of civilization from a unique perspective: the human sense of self. He traces all of the converging crises of our age to a common source, which he calls Separation. I haven't read it yet, but I hope someone might also see the potential of this, and you can buy it from Amazon or read it for free on his website: http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/

Have fun.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:40 pm

We're not done here. All the people who are liberated said that there was some shift. I had no shift. Everything is as it always was. Please dont tell me now "what did you expect life was always this way" because then enlightenment/liberation/truth realization/whatever would be completly of no use to anyone.

I dont know what questions can I ask you. Ive been trying to get this for months, I dont even know where Im stuck. I expect some relief, anything after I see it.

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:32 pm

Even now, there are moments when I have doubts whether I have really seen it; whether liberation was triggered.

I too expected to have some sort of shift, and so I would sit down and look at it time after time, finding no experiencer and no thinker and no controller, seeing life without a division.

I joined the ruthlesstruth arena and had somebody worked with me, same thing.

I joined liberationunleashed and had Ilona worked with me until it was seen over and over again.

But no shift.

I have no idea how other people experience the trigger, but for me it was simply realizing that something I used to think was there, isn't. Just a dropping away of a single belief. That's liberation. There's nothing resembling a profound or mystical experience about it, much to my dismay. :(

But the affect of it? Let's just say that new doors are popping up every day of my life. I do things that I never would have expected myself to do before. I am not as disturbed by negative thought patterns. I can see things much more clearly, see through the lies people put up to mask their fear, etc. And this, I came to the conclusion after finishing Jed Mckenna's Enlightenment Trilogy, is only a humble beginning of the long, exciting journey to Human Adulthood. Just a tiny, tiny tip of the iceberg.

I want you to answer the following questions as clearly as you can, in your own words.
  • What do you want from liberation?
    If there is no you in any shape or form, what is there?
    What is the self?
Give us a rant.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 pm

This sucks lol ;).

What do I want from liberation?

I guess I want some stability. As of now my thoughts and emotions are like ON/OFF switch. One day I wake up and everything is great and a few hours later Im angry and think everything totally sucks and there's no point in doing anything. It's not like I want some neverending bliss/happiness. I just want to feel some security, like whatever happens even if it sucks it will be perceived as "ok this sucks but Im still cool." It may sound stupid but last year I got into a fist fight and I had that kind of state for like two weeks. The best way I can put it is that I was stable. Even if I felt bad, I had a sense that I can endure anything. Thats what I want from liberation.

As for the second question, what is there if there's no self? There's no place for a self, theres nothing. Everything else exists, sense of self, body, thougts etc. It all works without some controller. An organism is alive without some self, it can function on its own.

What is self? I thought its something that chooses thoughts, something that makes decisions. However, theres no thing in reality that can be called self. "I" is used to describe an organism. Its a language tool that points to the whole organism. Just like "Poland" is a label for a country and everything related to it.

Thats my understanding. But as of now, it doesnt make anything easier for me.

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:17 pm

One more thing I forgot to add. I had two special experiences in my life when I was thinking hardcore about this whole "no you thing". They were both very short, like a few seconds. During those experiences I felt that the body is alive. Thats the best way I can put it. I felt aliveness and knew that body is moving on its own. Also everything around felt more alive, the colors were more bright etc. It sounds weird but I had that kind of experience. I thought that when someone is liberated then whole life looks like this.

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:05 pm

I guess I want some stability. As of now my thoughts and emotions are like ON/OFF switch. One day I wake up and everything is great and a few hours later Im angry and think everything totally sucks and there's no point in doing anything. It's not like I want some neverending bliss/happiness. I just want to feel some security, like whatever happens even if it sucks it will be perceived as "ok this sucks but Im still cool." It may sound stupid but last year I got into a fist fight and I had that kind of state for like two weeks. The best way I can put it is that I was stable. Even if I felt bad, I had a sense that I can endure anything. Thats what I want from liberation.
I get that too man, that uncontrollable emotional roller-coaster thing, and speaking from experience I can tell you that the way you view life in general is highly dependent on your emotional states. Or to put it more precisely, your thoughts and emotions ARE your reality.

You can remember those times when you were depressed, how you tend to view your past as rotten and miserable, just one failure after another. This is not how you want to live. What a miserable place this is, and you don't see how it could ever get better. What's the fucking point?

And then when you are feeling really good, you take a look at your past, present, and future, and it's like -- wow, everything seemed just right. What an amazing journey! You are reeling in anticipation of what's coming up next, being in awe to be a part of everything.

Recognize that? As you begin to understand how your mental-emotional state affects you, you will begin to realize how important it is to access and maintain useful emotional states.

I came from a pretty low point, brimming with repressed darkness and anger and fear, and for the past year I have been experimenting with TONS of reprogramming techniques, including meditation, yoga, NLP, magick, and so on, desperately trying to grab hold of something that would allow me to function better in day-to-day life. What I am going to share with you is a few resources that gives the most visible, measurable, deep identity-level change in the shortest period of time. Your emotional roller-coaster will still take place, but it's like the whole thing will be progressively elevated to a better, more stable level, giving you the freedom to do and to be that which you couldn't before. I don't know if this makes sense to you, but you'll know it if you do it. Here ya go:

http://www.amazon.com/Undoing-Yourself- ... 753&sr=8-1

http://radicalundoing.com/

And uh, if you don't want to pay for these things but are interested, I may be able to give them to you for free, you know, under the table. (there's also a bunch of free videos in the radicalundoing website) (And uh, ALL of Dr. Hyatt's materials may be found on demonoid. Shhh.)

I'll come back and address the other points later. Gotta go.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:50 pm

Im still not sure about this. If this whole "no you" thing is just a simple fact then.. its almost useless at the beginning. Maybe the conditioning will get weaker. As of now I think "Im not there yet". But its just another thought. Fuck.
Since I started working with you I catch myself more often when Im caught in some patterns. For example I get angry and I realise its just a pattern, no one to be angry. Im still angry then but its like the anger is cut off from the fuel and it loses momentum, I can feel it getting weaker.

Ill check both links you gave me, Ill begin with the first one then the next, dont want to start reading everything at the same time and not do the exercises properly. Ill try to find them and if I dont Ill send you a PM. I really appreciate that you're taking the time to help. Thanks.

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:19 am

You are right, this whole "no you" thing is just a simple fact. That's all it is, really. Nothing magical. Nothing profound. Just a simple fact. Though I highly disapprove of using the word "just" in the sentence.

We are talking about nothing less than seeing the core engine that our civilization has been designed to feed, the single most fundamental truth of humanity, for what it really is.

A mistaken assumption.

There's literally nothing there, at all, and has never been.

But seeing this simple fact isn't going to clear up all the bullshit humanity is drowning in. All it does, ALL IT EVER DOES, is to reveal that the stories don't refer to anything real. It's all vanity. So the core that the human activity revolves around is seen to be non-existent, but all the structures that was built around that core, the habits, conditioning, way of life, and all the rest? They are all where we left them. All of it.

And that's why there's much work to be done. We are treading new grounds here, and the liberated are, at best, experimenting with the new territory.

Just so you know, I felt exactly the same way when I was first liberated. That's why I kept double-checking it over and over. It was like -- is this it? Really? I thought this was gonna make me uber awesome, but it doesn't fix shit.

But you know what? It gets better. You just gotta do the work. Push the boundaries, and keep exploring. There's no promises here, but keep your eyes open and you'll do fine.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:20 pm

I need some time with this. Im still not sure. I still dont think I get it. I started reading "Undoing yourself" and its a great read, Ill start the exercises tomorrow. I need time to make sure THIS IS IT. Ill post tomorrow, writing with you helps me think clearly.

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:02 pm

Okay, dude, sorry. Had a discussion with the other guides, and turns out it's probably best if you put that book aside for now. The primary goal here is to get you through the gate, to have a direct experience of no-self. This should be confirmed before all else.

So, I asked around about how the shift was experienced for other people, and here are the replies:
I don't even know when it happened, I just started noticing differences in how I experienced and handled everyday stuff. That was ten months before I came to LU. lol... which is to say, I can roughly guess when it must have happened, but that's about it.
i remember the moment i looked, but it wasn't a grand shift, i just looked and it took a moment. no fireworks. from my exp, many people see it, but back off even after seeing it as mind does not accept that as IT, it seems that should be more, but it's very anticlimactic.
That might clear things up a bit. Okay, so I'm going to be gone tomorrow. I'm going to come back the day after tomorrow, and we are going to get you confirmed. Meanwhile, what I want you to do is to observe yourself as if you are a passive observer. Watch out for the differences in your experiences, watch out for the differences in how you handle things. Even better, observe what happens when your self-image is threatened. Maybe even make a fool out of yourself or do things that would have been catastrophic to your self-image, and see how it feels compared to before liberation. Observe and report, and then when you are done reporting, answer this:

How does it feel to be liberated?
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Dawid
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby Dawid » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:11 pm

How does it feel to be liberated?

I don't know if I'm the right person to answer that. I don't feel freedom, liberation or anything special. I don't know if I'm "there".

I didn't experience any shift, even subtle. Nothing. I doubt this is it. My life is exactly as it was. There isn't more happiness, more peace. Everything is exactly the same.

There is only one difference. When I feel some very strong emotions, like intense fear or anger, I am able to observe it. There is a knowing that these are just emotions. Patterns. During these emotions I know that I'm caught in some pattern and it's easier to break out of it. That's the only difference I noticed. Also saying "I" feels weird.

As for making a fool out of myself, I'm not sure if it's a real test, because even before I knew about liberation I didnt care much about reputation and I always used to say stupid or honest things that got me criticised.

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nothinker
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Re: Looking for help.

Postby nothinker » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:15 am

I understand that you expect something from liberation, and you don't feel you are getting it. I understand that you have ideas about what liberation should feel like, and you ain't feeling it. Therefore, you assume you are not "there" yet.

All I ask for now, is that you put those expectations aside completely, and look at what is true in reality.

You say you are able to observe strong emotions and see them as patterns. That's great. What you should do then, is to observe this observing. Really find out if there is a observer doing the observing. Don't tell me what you have heard before, but look directly.

How does observing work?
What causes the awareness to move from one thing to another?
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha


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