Life, living itself...

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Garsius Tyla
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:56 pm

About that "look". You don't need to look hard, look deep, or push something. Concentrated, but relaxed look will do a trick. Look not for a thought. Simple look at how it all is.

One more, but big ASK. If you see mark "?", it means take that question for a serious work. Don't miss any...
There is no choice maker, i only assumed there`s a category of thoughts that tend to that task. The choice is made based on criteria based on past experience or estimation, thoughts based on thoughts, being put in motion to perform a task
If there is no choice maker, choice making is happening by itself, same as thoughts which influence it, right? "I" thought just steps in after with judging this choice and claiming as it was his job. True, or not?
before starting
,
After starting
This practice... What influenced to start it. Can you remember what thoughts, other people words, or read book done that? Is it really was you, who decided to start it?
mindful, which i`m far from being able to do continously yet
Can you look and confirm that fact, that mindfulness = awareness just arising spontaneously? There is no YOU who decide and choose to switch it on, or off?
However, even if i look and don`t see an "I" when they happen, in the big picture they still feel like they are "mine", ocurring "in my head"
Yes, that very nice sense of self, which is deluding us. Still it is only sense, only feeling which just IS. Same as other feelings. It last form moment when you wake up till moment when you fall asleep. That happens. Where this feeling is in a deep sleep?
i see anger rising as an object, and the fact that there is a space between it and myself allows me to not be controlled by it, and it fades away. But it still feels as my space in which it`s appearing.
That "my space", right. You cannot be that space, because you are aware of it, right? If you can perceive it, it is not you, right? WHAT IS LEFT THEN???
If even that space and awareness about that space is not you, then - do YOU exist at all?
It is obvious truth to realise, nothing "deep", nothing mystical: no god, no light, no nothing...
For a few seconds, the thoughts called Frustration and Anger took a sit near
That indicate real honesty. I appreciate that. You are near. On the edge. Be together till you get this, ok?
but i saw them and they went away
Is it YOU saw them? Or SEEING (awareness) arose spontaneously? Look how that happens.
I cannot see the one that is having this dialogue, probably that`s why it sticks.
Of course YOU can't see... Because there is no YOU. Thoughts arising -> dialogue happens -> mindfulness happens -> frustration about dialogue happens -> mindfulness switches off... and again and again. There is no you who can influence that. Look how it is.

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Masauwu
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:39 am

Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:34 pm

If there is no choice maker, choice making is happening by itself, same as thoughts which influence it, right? "I" thought just steps in after with judging this choice and claiming as it was his job. True, or not?
True when i look at it. Unaware of it when it just happens automatically in daily life.
This practice... What influenced to start it. Can you remember what thoughts, other people words, or read book done that? Is it really was you, who decided to start it?
I had been on a search for years - a philosophical quest for the most part - but it lacked clarity, reading from many of the books on the spiritual supermarket. When i found out about vipassana and the concept of awakening, somehow i was hooked and it was the first path that made me practice it not just read about it. After a month of sitting 30-60 minutes a day, something happened and an aversion to sitting and restlessness to sitting appeared, although its benefits were clear. Spent another month with no sitting but strangely commited to never give up, and one day i tried applying in daily life what i would do in the sitting; basically paying attention to whatever body sense or mind object appears in my field of experience. I cannot pinpoint a clear moment when i decided i will never give up, it was a gradual buildup based on seeing the effects of practice.
Can you look and confirm that fact, that mindfulness = awareness just arising spontaneously? There is no YOU who decide and choose to switch it on, or off?
Not spontaneously, still a me. An effort to remember when i get lost in thought and get back to pay attention. Not an experience of pure awareness or some unusual state like that, just attention sustained by effort.
Yes, that very nice sense of self, which is deluding us. Still it is only sense, only feeling which just IS. Same as other feelings. It last form moment when you wake up till moment when you fall asleep. That happens. Where this feeling is in a deep sleep?
In deep sleep it`s gone. In dreams it`s back. In the transition between being awake and being asleep there`s something unusual going on, but it`s not clear what.
That "my space", right. You cannot be that space, because you are aware of it, right? If you can perceive it, it is not you, right? WHAT IS LEFT THEN???
If even that space and awareness about that space is not you, then - do YOU exist at all?
It is obvious truth to realise, nothing "deep", nothing mystical: no god, no light, no nothing...
Yes it makes sense, it`s logical, that i`m not that space either. Obviously that`s not enough.
That indicate real honesty. I appreciate that. You are near. On the edge. Be together till you get this, ok?
Ok, and thanks for your patience.
Is it YOU saw them? Or SEEING (awareness) arose spontaneously? Look how that happens.
Knowledge of them coming and going "happened", there was no "I" seeing them.
Of course YOU can't see... Because there is no YOU. Thoughts arising -> dialogue happens -> mindfulness happens -> frustration about dialogue happens -> mindfulness switches off... and again and again. There is no you who can influence that. Look how it is.
I`ve never experienced so much frustration as i did while trying and failing over and over again to realize this; i would have thought that as this reality is logical and the little pieces are seen, something would snap into place and result in a direct realization of the big picture, but it doesn`t somehow. If it feels like a waste of time for you, it`s perfectly fine if you take another project. Otherwise i can keep trying, but without realizing what am i doing wrong it feels like going in circles.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:15 pm

If there is no choice maker, choice making is happening by itself, same as thoughts which influence it, right? "I" thought just steps in after with judging this choice and claiming as it was his job. True, or not?

True when i look at it. Unaware of it when it just happens automatically in daily life.
Awareness happens. Unawareness also happens. Thing is - all happens automatically in daily life. If something happens according to some thought and meets expectation - it is feels good. If not - it feels bad. Look, if there is a place for that "I" somewhere?
I had been on a search for years - a philosophical quest for the most part - but it lacked clarity, reading from many of the books on the spiritual supermarket. When i found out about vipassana and the concept of awakening, somehow i was hooked and it was the first path that made me practice it not just read about it. After a month of sitting 30-60 minutes a day, something happened and an aversion to sitting and restlessness to sitting appeared, although its benefits were clear. Spent another month with no sitting but strangely commited to never give up, and one day i tried applying in daily life what i would do in the sitting; basically paying attention to whatever body sense or mind object appears in my field of experience. I cannot pinpoint a clear moment when i decided i will never give up, it was a gradual buildup based on seeing the effects of practice.
Yeah, that is a story with big amount of "I". Remove that "I" here. What is left? What is missing then? Is there a need of that "I" at all for that story to happen? What this "I" adds to the story?
Can you look and confirm that fact, that mindfulness = awareness just arising spontaneously? There is no YOU who decide and choose to switch it on, or off?

Not spontaneously, still a me. An effort to remember when i get lost in thought and get back to pay attention. Not an experience of pure awareness or some unusual state like that, just attention sustained by effort.
"effort to remember" here. Can you describe in detail how that effort arises? Can you predict when that effort will be present, or it appear spontaneously? Same as with loosing attention. Can you predict, when exactly you gonna loose it?
Yes, that very nice sense of self, which is deluding us. Still it is only sense, only feeling which just IS. Same as other feelings. It last form moment when you wake up till moment when you fall asleep. That happens. Where this feeling is in a deep sleep?

In deep sleep it`s gone. In dreams it`s back. In the transition between being awake and being asleep there`s something unusual going on, but it`s not clear what.
Don't analyse that for now. All you have to realise, is - that sense of self is not YOU, it is just sense. Special one, but still - not YOU. If it is not you - what is left then? LOOK at that. LOOK at what is behind that sense, if there is anybody. LOOK at that place where actual "I" should be. WHAT is there?

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:44 pm

Awareness happens. Unawareness also happens. Thing is - all happens automatically in daily life. If something happens according to some thought and meets expectation - it is feels good. If not - it feels bad. Look, if there is a place for that "I" somewhere?
It feels good or bad for the "I", otherwise what is just is, no good or bad.
Yeah, that is a story with big amount of "I". Remove that "I" here. What is left? What is missing then? Is there a need of that "I" at all for that story to happen? What this "I" adds to the story?
Without the "I" there is no search, true reality is already there, there would be nobody to awaken to it. Some hint of this reality was glimpsed by this "I" and a search was started to find it. (But then "i" wouldn`t be here with you trying to show me i`m already where i want to go.)
"effort to remember" here. Can you describe in detail how that effort arises? Can you predict when that effort will be present, or it appear spontaneously? Same as with loosing attention. Can you predict, when exactly you gonna loose it?
A thought with a plan to make the effort to remember was thrown into the mix. I can absolutely not predict any of the appearances or disappearances. Not even which one comes next or if it comes at all.
All you have to realise, is - that sense of self is not YOU, it is just sense. Special one, but still - not YOU. If it is not you - what is left then? LOOK at that. LOOK at what is behind that sense, if there is anybody. LOOK at that place where actual "I" should be. WHAT is there?
I will take some time with this and report back in the morning.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:35 am

Did this until sleep, resumed it after a few hours, failing again resulted in all time high anger and frustration; this time they brought a friend, misery. They build up more and more with each renewed push to look and the subsequent fail of the looking. Good thing they`re impermanent. "No idea why i am still doing this", one of the thoughts.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:48 am

You are on the right way. Welcome all that comes. Let it be free and vanish. That cannot harm you. It is not yours. It is not you. There is no you.
All that can be experienced is not YOU!

What is left then? Be with what comes. Realise truth.

DO YOU EXIST, Masauwu?

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:05 am

I`d rather not answer just yet, it would only conjure up more frustration. I`ll take some time with it, but with less straining and forcing. I re-read the whole thread and felt i should observe this more:
Just look around, inside, and be aware how all happens by itself. Thoughts come and go, feelings come and go. Body moves, heart is beating, sense of being is, thoughts with label "I" arise, awareness of all that, is.
-------
About that "look". You don't need to look hard, look deep, or push something. Concentrated, but relaxed look will do a trick. Look not for a thought. Simple look at how it all is.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:37 am

Yes my friend, good point. Take your time. Just don't let frustration to take you away. Keep looking.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:10 am

I think i see a hint of what this "looking" and "seeing" is. Witnessing, disengaged, like from the viewpoint of the space on which everything happens. And it needs practice to be more than just a hint. Is this the right track?

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:25 am

True. Seeing is. Witnessing is. All just is. BUT:

Can you see centre of that all? That "I" who does that all?

All you need to get there is to find out for yourself, that there is no centre, no "I" at all. "Viewpoint in space" - ok with that. You don't need to practice it. That is thought projected thing, you can be aware of. If so, it is not YOU. There is no separate entity that you could call "I"?

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:29 am

When looking like i described above, I cannot see a centre. But if i don`t keep "looking" continously, there is a habit of "I" lurking around.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:36 am

It's okey about habit, let it be. But if it is no actual "I", why do you care about habit? Let it be.
I cannot see a centre
That means there is no you? What stop you to tell this? Investigate, what feelings, thoughts etc. stops you from doing this.

Write down this: "THERE IS NO ME, NO ME AT ALL".

Witness what comes then.

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Masauwu
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Masauwu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:56 am

When i wrote that down i didn`t notice any reaction at all, but still can`t say there is no me. I`ll keep looking.

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Garsius Tyla
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:00 am

"I" is just like a "city". Is there anywhere city is? What is that "city" apart from buildings, roads, cars, people etc.?
Look if that is the same with an "I"?

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Garsius Tyla
Posts: 165
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Re: Life, living itself...

Postby Garsius Tyla » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:13 am

When i wrote that down i didn`t notice any reaction at all, but still can`t say there is no me. I`ll keep looking.
"but still can`t say there is no me" - what else is that if not just another thought, which you wrote down here? What stand behind that?


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